WangKon (EC)

[kossin]

Just giving Immortal techs won't do much to make the setting more difficult.
Giving a worker will but on Epic that will be too tempting for worker stealing.

Normal games should be fine as long as the saves submitted are by Emp and below players. Players winning consistently on Emperor should at least try Immortal or put their saves as shadows.

Changing the game speed to Normal will also make the game more difficult (wars aren't as easy).

I think players learn the most by comparing their saves and making games more difficult to adjust to the cookbook setting and better players is not a good idea in my opinion.

Tweaking the map can be good to learn a few tactics indeed, but it starts being more of a challenge game than the cookbook.

There are a lot of things that can be done but the best way to find out what exactly is to ask the people that will be playing the maps.

The cookbook usually gets a lot of first round saves but it drops to 4~5 only after that. Is it time? Difficulty? Interest?

Options I'd consider:
Normal speed with 50 turns rounds
Report and vote dates rather than just vote.

 

[Gumbolt]

I like the vote options as people actually have to look at saves. I have no plans to change that. I would consider a move to normal speed on next cookbook. I never really noticed the difference.

The competition side of things also spurs people on.

Immortal players should really just be shadowing anyway. If you can win at immortal you dont need a cookbook.

 

[bestsss]

This map is very difficult, I'd say more difficult than an average immortal map.

Spoiler :

Don't read, it concerns the rival civs.

Spoiler :

You've been warned

Spoiler :

I tried 'not' to archer rush the French... There is no frigging commerce aside the cottages since the coast is so unappealing. Settled over the dye to have some the (only possible) happy resource (the jumbo).
However instead of founding religion he went for music and Sistine,

Ended up building jumbos/pult which here totally crashed Louis. Settled 2 great artists in my face. Meanwhile Parthenon gone 400BC, lib date - before 900AD, for emperor this is early.
By the same time I wiped Louis w/ the trustworthy jumbos, extorted, stole some tech off him but...
Managed to prove the world is round w/ just trading the maps, giving mine to please 'em, etc...
However Alex is brutally big, vassaled the continent (very easy vassals w/ shated religion, Salading kissed the ring w/o losing a single city...). The war was exactly 3 turns.

And very soon after he went into war mode again... w/ me being the only possible target.
Managed to survive by teching repl. parts/demo (SoL was built by the nameless dude w/ brutal capital and 5 religions, neightbor of Joao) and trading it for everything, incl. rifles. Asked 1gold off alex and 2 turns after got timed great person (engineer, sucks so much to waste him on golden age)... Draft my way out of his cavalry and now the cottages are grow, rushing buying stuff.

It's close to 18 century and still no oxford (soon to be, though)...

 

[Gumbolt]

This map is very difficult, I'd say more difficult than an average immortal map.

Spoiler :

Don't read, it concerns the rival civs.

Spoiler :

You've been warned

Spoiler :

I tried 'not' to archer rush the French... There is no frigging commerce aside the cottages since the coast is so unappealing. Settled over the dye to have some the (only possible) happy resource (the jumbo).
However instead of founding religion he went for music and Sistine,

Ended up building jumbos/pult which here totally crashed Louis. Settled 2 great artists in my face. Meanwhile Parthenon gone 400BC, lib date - before 900AD, for emperor this is early.
By the same time I wiped Louis w/ the trustworthy jumbos, extorted, stole some tech off him but...
Managed to prove the world is round w/ just trading the maps, giving mine to please 'em, etc...
However Alex is brutally big, vassaled the continent (very easy vassals w/ shated religion, Salading kissed the ring w/o losing a single city...). The war was exactly 3 turns.

And very soon after he went into war mode again... w/ me being the only possible target.
Managed to survive by teching repl. parts/demo (SoL was built by the nameless dude w/ brutal capital and 5 religions, neightbor of Joao) and trading it for everything, incl. rifles. Asked 1gold off alex and 2 turns after got timed great person (engineer, sucks so much to waste him on golden age)... Draft my way out of his cavalry and now the cottages are grow, rushing buying stuff.

It's close to 18 century and still no oxford (soon to be, though)...

Have we made this too tough??

Spoiler :

In all fairness the original save had more resources including another food resource in BFC. Banana and more floodplains and commerce resources.

I think perhaps a iron resource in the BFC would of balanced us up with the French so close but this would of made the rush option too obvious for me. Theres still a fair share of resources to be used. Once you clear the jungle andthe cottages will start to grow.

Biggest issue is how close the French are and lack of responses the player really has to them.

We could reroll if its way too tough.

 

[bestsss]

@Gumbolt

Spoiler :

More map considerations.

Spoiler :

I dunno, there are too many tech. necessary. Normally after AH/BW people would hope for iron. Lack of iron, btw, totally screws you over before you can get oil ships. That alone is a huge issue (w/ Alex double declaring and raping all my fishing boats) and forces the game too much, mostly b/c no peaceful victory is possible in my test: Pacal builds all the culture wonders and it's just a miracle the French built the Sistine. With Sistine in his hand the game could have been over w/o even getting to the oil navy.

The horsies are invisible w/o settling the island which would be good only w/ the big lighthouse and generally it didn't occur to me to settle it, it's a crap city overall and I had already settled another claiming the clams.

But even if one goes so far and manages to settle the horse, horse archers by that time might win you the day but the before cavalry the horses are not useful. Chariots to defend vs axemen is out of question. Also it's possible but quite low odds barbs to settle there, so forget about it.

The main problem, though, is the lack of commerce and food and health resources. Settling in the jungle kills the health just fine. It takes too many technologies to start getting productive land. Civil service being truly late one (I got it after killing Louis).

Outside the whip there is no production except the capital, of course. Which is ok, but food poor and that means no whipping there.

Lack of production and the fear of creative neighbor speak about the Stonehenge which I think it's a good decision here, that means scientists should be run outside the capital. I failed to properly do it and ended up w/ a great prophet which helped the jumbo offense but lack of academy was a long time issue.
----
yet, the map is doable but involves some luck. Got lucky w/ the 1st attempt (when didn't know the map and proceed w/ cover protective archers to claim the lands). That removes the need to tech horse back riding/construction and building any army, plus I can settle the land better.
The 2nd attempt is a peaceful start and it's hard.

shyuhe, perhaps you can test drive the map?

 

[kossin]

@Gumbolt/bestsss

Spoiler :

I'd say revert to the first map. I tested it quite a bit (didn't do quite as much on the second map as I was in a hurry) and that horse bestsss talks about is actually Iron in that map. I won't listen to Gumbolt saying it's too easy the next time

Hats off to bestsss to pull this off without map knowledge.

 

[Gumbolt]

@Gumbolt

Spoiler :

More map considerations.

Spoiler :

I dunno, there are too many tech. necessary. Normally after AH/BW people would hope for iron. Lack of iron, btw, totally screws you over before you can get oil ships. That alone is a huge issue (w/ Alex double declaring and raping all my fishing boats) and forces the game too much, mostly b/c no peaceful victory is possible in my test: Pacal builds all the culture wonders and it's just a miracle the French built the Sistine. With Sistine in his hand the game could have been over w/o even getting to the oil navy.

The horsies are invisible w/o settling the island which would be good only w/ the big lighthouse and generally it didn't occur to me to settle it, it's a crap city overall and I had already settled another claiming the clams.

But even if one goes so far and manages to settle the horse, horse archers by that time might win you the day but the before cavalry the horses are not useful. Chariots to defend vs axemen is out of question. Also it's possible but quite low odds barbs to settle there, so forget about it.

The main problem, though, is the lack of commerce and food and health resources. Settling in the jungle kills the health just fine. It takes too many technologies to start getting productive land. Civil service being truly late one (I got it after killing Louis).

Outside the whip there is no production except the capital, of course. Which is ok, but food poor and that means no whipping there.

Lack of production and the fear of creative neighbor speak about the Stonehenge which I think it's a good decision here, that means scientists should be run outside the capital. I failed to properly do it and ended up w/ a great prophet which helped the jumbo offense but lack of academy was a long time issue.
----
yet, the map is doable but involves some luck. Got lucky w/ the 1st attempt (when didn't know the map and proceed w/ cover protective archers to claim the lands). That removes the need to tech horse back riding/construction and building any army, plus I can settle the land better.
The 2nd attempt is a peaceful start and it's hard.

shyuhe, perhaps you can test drive the map?

Spoiler :

I did update my post.

I agree without iron its tough and health is a huge problem on this map and many of the resources are happiness ones and not health. I wonder if an isolated start with iron, copper and horse was the way to go.

I wonder what the original map looked like? In all fairness the first version I was sent had no copper, iron or horse beyond a copper outside the French capital BFC. I was informed it would be an easy win so I suggested making it tougher after i viewed the save and thought it had lots of commerce resources on a financial leader.

I think Kossins idea of an easy win is a deity map with raging barbs.

 

[Gumbolt]

I dont think I have the original save you sent me anymore. Lets revert back to that save. The game needs to be winnable for monarch/emperor players without luck being involved.

 

[Gumbolt]

I found the save!! Will post in a bit.

 

[Gumbolt]

need to get Kossins opinion on a few changes then we'll post a new save. If he posts it before me then we'll play from that.

We could just use a new map but I would hate for Kossins hard work and graft on map making to go to waste. Its good to know at least we have given bestsss a nice challenge to play out.

 

[bestsss]

Nay, leave the map. Let it play
Definitely, it is a winnable one but I doubt it should be 'cookbook' type.

 

[Gumbolt]

We will play same map butwith a few resource/terrain changes. He will post save in a bit. All in all it looks a good fun map just needs balancing in some areas.

Would be good to see Shyhuhe or TMIT try the hard version of the save.

 

[bobbyboy29]

Lol, should have realized that this map had been slightly tampered with, i'm really not a fan of this guys, if it's too easy a map then just re-roll please, otherwise it feels like a tainted game play experience. Anyway here's a summary of what I did and why you already know it went horribly wrong...

Spoiler :

Obviously Louis has got to go as we have nowhere to expand with all this damned jungle. No horses, fine... no copper... no worries. I had a brilliant plan which was guaranteed to make my save win this turnset. I was going to oracle... wait for it.... Iron Working! That way I'd be sure to find iron, i could kill Louis with swords and I'd have the tech needed to clear all that damned jungle!

"What a brilliant plan!" I thought to myself. Of course, as you well know there was no iron on the entire continent, Louis has copper and I've missed the chance to archer rush. What a Wangk!(pun intended) Game over.

Anyway, I'm not really a fan of this map especially for a cookbook as we're basically forced into either archer rushing or waiting for elehwachas. I hope I'm not coming across as being contrite as I love this idea for a series and think it is very beneficial. However, I think the point of a cookbook is to let people see that you can have a variety of approaches on the same map. Jamming a creative AI down your throat on a small jungle infested island does not do that imo.

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay here is the revised save. This should be more of a Emperor level now. Not a difficult immortal game.

Good luck all.

 

[Gumbolt]

Spoiler :

I take on your point. I think the new save should allow some different approaches and hopefully some better city options.

I do like the idea of a jungle start as it requires a change in gameplay to the norm. The main being the need for more workers.

Lol, should have realized that this map had been slightly tampered with, i'm really not a fan of this guys, if it's too easy a map then just re-roll please, otherwise it feels like a tainted game play experience. Anyway here's a summary of what I did and why you already know it went horribly wrong...

Spoiler :

Obviously Louis has got to go as we have nowhere to expand with all this damned jungle. No horses, fine... no copper... no worries. I had a brilliant plan which was guaranteed to make my save win this turnset. I was going to oracle... wait for it.... Iron Working! That way I'd be sure to find iron, i could kill Louis with swords and I'd have the tech needed to clear all that damned jungle!

"What a brilliant plan!" I thought to myself. Of course, as you well know there was no iron on the entire continent, Louis has copper and I've missed the chance to archer rush. What a Wangk!(pun intended) Game over.

Anyway, I'm not really a fan of this map especially for a cookbook as we're basically forced into either archer rushing or waiting for elehwachas. I hope I'm not coming across as being contrite as I love this idea for a series and think it is very beneficial. However, I think the point of a cookbook is to let people see that you can have a variety of approaches on the same map. Jamming a creative AI down your throat on a small jungle infested island does not do that imo.

 

[kossin]

Can you add a link in the first post?

I've added a link in the second post so hopefully the game can get correctly started.

Again, apologies to anyone that was frustrated by the harder version. You'll find the normal version much more playable (I tested it extensively but had little time on the tweaked version).

 

[Gumbolt]

Posted link in first post. We will extend this round to Sunday.

Sorry once again for the tough first map. This map should be much more fun and playable.

 

[shyuhe]

I tried the original map. It's just... painful. ~1300 BC

Spoiler :

Settled 1NE on the banana since I figured it won't come into play soon and the best tile in the fog is probably unirrigated rice (given the jungle). Of course then I realize that Louis is close and our only neighbor (EP spending). So I decided to go with the archer rush. On a creative civ. SMRT!

The end result after slogging around and some lucky dice rolls:

Suiciding cover archers against fortified archers with 40% culture is an utter crapshoot. I think I had 3:1 in numbers and I was worried that I'd lose my battle (and game really).

I have a horrendous tech situation:

Scouting is horrible since I committed to such a horrible game plan. I had gone BW first to chop the trees and didn't go AH until later since horses are hard to find in the jungle. This map is just more cruel than anything else I'll try to play this out if I find the time.

 

[lymond]

well, a little better

Spoiler :

At least there are a few more resources this time, but still no early strategic resources. Couldn't really make a play on Louie. I guess I should have gone for Archery but hate to do so unless necessary. Also, bee-lining IW makes sense but I waited a bit too long. I'm teching it now but would rather be teching Writing at this point. I attacked the French to steal a worker but he will not agree to peace. Usually I can do this trick a make peace in a couple of turns or after killing a scout like I did - but he's just being an azz. At least I got up 4 cities while still getting in Stonehenge. However, I'm concerned about settling 2 cities next to a creative leader - could be a problem. However, I hope with IW I will have some ammo to take him out anyway -he really has to go - this island is not big enough for the two of us. Anyway, I at least wanted those Floodplain to lay down a bunch of FIN cottages.

edit: oops! forgot the save

 

[CBPE]

Just a newbie question....

settling on Banana will provide 3F1H1H ?