Wang's Killing Fields (IMM Always War)

[Grashopa]

So what would be better approach to handle economy here? Granted this map is not cottage paradise like previous one.

Still cottages? Specs? Spies? Fail gold? Bit of everything? Rex to 10 cities by 1AD () or stay small?

I went all cottages aiming for taking advantage of the fact we have to build banks everywhere to get the slider up and that we can rush buy later. This map is a cottage paradise - just not in your side of the map But early on it was the golds and the coastal commerce getting me to elepult I believe. You can try chop whipping libraries in time with the pyramids. That is probably better? As long as you keep one city beside the capital for barracks and stable.

Skip oracle though. I think its far superior. Even oracle construction would be slower since you don't get your production cities up.

 

[Grashopa]

ABCF - I think medieval will always be superior as you have to fight anyway and you need to be putting cottages down which the AIs either won't do or are choked out of doing. Their land would be terribly useless if you wait. Though with Rep perhaps it doesn't matter.

Both the IMM AW maps had AIs across a jungle which I think made things easier. I want to be surrounded next time to see how it changes things when you are at war before 2000 BC instead of being free to setup your land.

 

[Izuul]

Every time i start to get a little confident in this game, i get knocked back down a peg. Qin is gone, but he got artillery followed by infantry right after i attacked him (Bismarck has them too), and the other guys have showed up with battleships, carriers, fighters, marines/seals, sam infantry, and have access to all kinds of other things that i haven't seen yet.

Cannons can still handle Bismarck's Infantry in cities, and MGs + my remaining super-rifles can defend cities decently, but i get chewed up in the field. I've been just a little late attacking all throughout this game. I've probably played a little too conservatively which is why I'm still alive, but also why i likely won't be able to win this game.

Anyway, here's a little update...

Spoiler :

Qin get's Artillery 2 turns before i can get to Shanghai. My attacking stack is pretty small. I have quite a few units in that forest tile 5S of Shanghai, but i decided to strike rather than wait on them to get there. I was able to soak up 5-6 Artillery without too much damage, but the bigger problem came a few turns later.

This was taken kind of after the fact, but you can see that Bismarck has infantry. Qin had them too. In fact, he got them just before i could get to Beijing and he upgraded a lot of rifles to infantry which really hurt. I lost at least a dozen cannons taking his last 3 cities.

Meanwhile, Lincoln tried to pull a fast one on me over on the west coast. I thought i was screwed when i saw this. I had no idea what was on those transports, it could have been something really nasty. Anyway, Knosos was the only city he could hit from the boats that turn. He could land one tile off of the eastern city there, and there were a couple more cities that could also be attacked in 2 turns. I moved all of the units that i could muster in that direction, with RRs really helping the cause.

He went for Knosos and actually landed his stack giving me an additional turn to get units into the city. I think the actual attacking stack was 6 seals, 5 cavs, and sam infantry. As you can see, i survived long enough to get reinforcements into the city, but i lost a few units including one of my GG rifles with over 100XP. Sad day. Those seals were getting huge odds on all of my units. I'm glad he didn't bring more.

Qin finally dies in 1894 and his size-1 city gets auto-razed, which is fine. I'd like to rebuild it one day (along with about 4 other sites) but it just takes too many resources to defend them all right now. I did find it pretty humorous (albeit annoying) that he chose to settle this site a few turns before he died. He literally had a settler over there for 4000 years, but would never actually settle the city for some reason.

If i want, i can switch to building Wealth in all of my cities right now and get to Infantry in no more than 17 turns. Probably more like 15 turns if i allow my cities to grow and continue to build more watermills and workshops. Or i could keep going all out Cannons, Rifles, and MGs and hope to outproduce Bismarck.

Nobody has taken the bait on the trap city. I really liked the idea, and i wish the AI would cooperate.

Nobody is making much of an effort to win this game yet, which still gives me a sliver of hope. Maybe they will fart around long enough for me to get nukes or something.

I'm unsure if i should continue attacking Bismarck with inferior units and just try to overwhelm him, or if i should try to dig in and defend long enough to get something better. Neither option seems particularly good right now. Bismarck just lacks Electricity and Industrialism for Marines and Panzers. If i press on now, I'll likely run into those before i get too far, but I'm a long ways from getting anything that can really compete. I would need Infantry, Artillery, and Anti-tanks at the minimum. Maybe i could go on to Fission from there and start nuking people.

Ideas?

 

[Doshin]

1440 AD - 1730 AD (T204-T256)

A good turnset. I think I'm in a very strong position now.

This was the period in which the other continent made contact. First Pacal:

Spoiler :

Then Peter:

Spoiler :

Then Charlie and, finally, Lincoln:

Spoiler :

Taejo Wang Geon, although he could not reach the enemy ships, knew what had to be done. Across the sea, he yelled to the intrepid explorers that they must expect war. The Pigs, Gold, and Stone of Korea were to be protected at all costs. Unknowingly, the travelers laughed. Surely that backward fool could pose no threat.

Tech path went Feudalism ---> Guilds ---> Banking ---> Nationalism ---> Replaceable Parts ---> Gunpowder ---> Rifling. Engineering was stolen from the Greeks, as was Aesthetics, Literature, and Compass. Switching into Mercantilism was worth 72 per turn, I believe. I went to Nationalism before RP in the slim hope that I could reach Democracy in time to rush buy the SoL with Great Person #6:

Spoiler :

...but of course it wasn't to be. Instead, I saved him.

Before TOC arrived, I pushed on with the war against Germany. My stacks were desperately small, but Spy revolts were put to good use:

Spoiler :

One down, six to go...

GPerson #7 was a Great Prophet. I would have liked this much earlier, but better late than never I suppose:

Spoiler :

After 1000 years of paralysis, Qin reached Engineering and tried to do something:

Spoiler :

This coincided with the arrival of TOC's mini-stacks:

Spoiler :

One city was lost in the NE (Cologne) to Pacal, but recaptured a few turns later. I just didn't have any troops in the region to repel him.

In the mean time, I turned my attention back to China. Qin only had four cities (one not pictured):

Spoiler :

Two down, five to go.

I was going to end the turn set there (50 turns), but played two more. Great person #9 spawned somewhere other than my capital:

Spoiler :

It seemed like a good time for a Golden Age. I want to enter Nationalism, and the GA turns can help speed up Factories.

My tech path had gone from Rifling ---> Steel ---> Steam Power ---> Railroad ---> Education ---> Constitution ---> Economics ---> Corporation. This let me found Mining Inc. in 1730 AD:

Spoiler :

This means I can stay in Mercantilism and still remain very productive.

I still have one Great Engineer remaining. The Pentagon is yet to be built, although Lincoln has had Assembly Line for a few turns. I'll try and nab that if I can. Unfortunately, Pacal already has Radio whereas I lack Scientific Method, so the Cristo Redentor is not going to happen. If I miss the Pentagon... well, the GE will either be used to start another GA, or perhaps to rush buy the Three Gorges Dam.

Current plan is to wipe out Alex (three cities, one tech away from Grenadiers thanks to his master) and then industrialize before preparing a naval invasion fleet. I *think* I have enough votes to prevent a UN Diplomatic loss. A culture loss seems unlikely as well, I think. Pacal is closest, but most of his wonders were spammed in his capital (Broadway and Rock and Roll are both there) while Lincoln also wonder spammed and claimed the Sistine Chapel.

Also, the legendary city of El Trapo has just been founded.

Spoiler :

Oh noes, it's entirely unprotected.

 

[ABigCivFan]

@Grasopa, 1500AD SOL, Communism sounds amazing on IMM AW. Banks and cottages is a good point. Especially if you can time it well to found a religion and build a shrine in a commerce city.

I am trying out the strategy that I laid out, will see how it goes.

 

[Doshin]

@ABCF

In my AW test game, I only started to push out with Rifles (no Elephants) and managed to conquer the continent by ~1900 AD, which proved to be too late. I think I had wonder-spammed early too (GW, ToA, Pyramids, AP, UoS, SM). Lib was lost too Elizabeth on TOC at a ridiculously early date (I later looked in the WB, and saw that she went there before Feudalism, Civil Service, etc.).

I guess it depends on the efficiency of the choke. Cuirassier wars take heavy casualties against hill LBs and Pikes, and if one of the three AIs escapes the choke and becomes a monster (the other two being crippled), they'll just vassal the other two and start sending SoDs your way.

With just two opponents, a HA rush ---> Elepult can be very quick (Oracle HBR) and lead to you having the time and space to build all the good stuff. I don't know whether this could succeed against three AIs.

@GKey

There's plenty of cottageable land, and Merchant specialists via Markets or Caste meant that I didn't have to build Wealth in my game. The early Gold and FPs greatly helped my initial commerce.

@Izuul

Tough position. I'm not sure how you can best to get back into it. I do think you should attack Bismark. Tanks rip Rifles and Infantry apart, and, although attacking will lead to heavy losses, defending will lead to heavy losses without any real benefit.

But, as you know, your main problem is teching. If the AI absolutely refuses to take your trap city (they might not know about it yet) just let another city go. It won't be as efficient, but you can still steal there more cheaply than self-tech with the stationary and religious discounts (and the passive EPs you're getting).

If Washington is coastal, you have a decent shot of nerfing Lincoln's space attempt. And it looks to me like Pacal is going for a culture win in your game as well.

 

[GKey]

@Grashopa You manage to dominate continent by 1120AD? Just wow... as usual

Moar details please!

So cottages beat beat rep specialist here? That's what I did.

 

[Manco Capac]

Yikes, it's 2:44 AM, I got entrapped once again with the OMT syndrome. Exhausting SGOTM made me eager to play my solo games. Especially games where I can unleash my psychopathic side...much better game than that BOTM61 where I got ultra trolled by one turn.

Will just dump some pictures and a save. Gotta go to bed.
I don't think that's the most efficient way, but I like to be alone...in AW.

I would consider this more or less my second attempt. In fact, I started one but I got trolled once again very early losing my warrior to an animal. Enough early I didn't know where were the civs except I was suspecting them in the north. So I guess that's a big spoiler.

Spoiler :

 

[Manco Capac]

ABCF - I think medieval will always be superior as you have to fight anyway and you need to be putting cottages down which the AIs either won't do or are choked out of doing. Their land would be terribly useless if you wait. Though with Rep perhaps it doesn't matter.

So basically, it is best to take the AI at the first opportunity. I did this, but I still feel my economy suffered a bit and I'm backward. At least my army of workers + Mids will do the job to catch.

 

[Doshin]

@Grashopa

I just realized how many BPT you're generating in 1500 AD. That's obscene.

@Tachywaxon

Ha! All the talk of trap cities, grabbing a religion, founding cities on hill (etc.) was nonsense. You just need to HA rush everyone to death.

You both put my own efforts to shame.

 

[Manco Capac]

But, as you know, your main problem is teching. If the AI absolutely refuses to take your trap city (they might not know about it yet) just let another city go. It won't be as efficient, but you can still steal there more cheaply than self-tech with the stationary and religious discounts (and the passive EPs you're getting).

Here I quote what I said in another post about city targeting. Maybe, you'll find informative details...

Well, when it comes to warring, the AI is pretty clueless, so don't expect them making grand strategy like assembling against the strongest and kill him and then betray each other...and so on and so on. Karadoc's K-mod has AI's with a semblance of strategy when it comes to war like dogpiling those running away (not only the AI's but also the human) and other stuff like opportunistic wars that lead one AI with two wars started on their own because it can handle it.

In the unmodded BTS (and prolly the same for earlier versions), the AI attacks other nations with stacks or named SOD (stacks of Doom) targeting cities. Yeah, there are few other types of single units roaming around for no particular reason like those UNITAI_PILLAGE units supposed to pillage but fortify in the most defensive and most NE tile of a city BFC but actually does nothing.

What I learnt from experience from Barbarian Firaxis Official Mod in Warlords expansion is the AI is extremely easy to handle even more advanced if you have no cities because it targets cities and not your stack (unless you drop by and a monster stack is near).

So, when an AI attacks, it brings stacks and targets cities according to AI_targetCityValue function in CvPlayerAI.cpp file defining AI's. It is the same function for all AI's and they judge their preferred cities the same way. That function attributes values to cities according a panoply of factors:

• City's population is an important factor.
• If the targeted city belonged to the city targeter, the invader culture in that city will push the value.
• If the city has some wall/cultural damages already, then that city will have some value more than others.
• Coastal cities that can build boats are getting a bit of value.
• Wonders attract the invading AI.
• Holy cities are prized by the AI.
• If the city was lost to another, then the invader wants to get it back.
• Values potential attackers near that city (will see that one in details if you're really interested)
• Also values city BFC bonus resources and even more if that one is presently controlled by the target.
• If the target is adjacent to the AI invader, the a plus in the value of that particular city.
• Also calculate the nearest city and put a strong value for it.
• It seems there is a random part for city targeting but it depends of what kind of unit will receive the order because depending who uses the target city function, the randomizer can be shut on or shut off.

Then, it sums up all those factors values and the city that gets the best value is the winner.

 

[Manco Capac]

@Tachywaxon

Ha! All the talk of trap cities, grabbing a religion, founding cities on hill (etc.) was nonsense. You just need to HA rush everyone to death.

You both put my own efforts to shame.

Hey, hey, hey, what I did was cheap and simply killed the AW factor. A true AW should not be like that. Knowing too much the AI's and their behaviours lead to that.
And I'm far bloodlier than Zx Zero Zx.
What did Grashopa was refined/sophisticated and more adaptive to a grand variety of AW games.
And Grashopa rules anyways. He's one of those super deity players.

 

[Manco Capac]

BTW, Doshin, please, read my reply in my personal thread thingy. I did a long research on your question. That's the least you can do. *wink*.

 

[Doshin]

1730 AD - 1902 AD (T256-T322)

Domination Victory.

Spoiler :

I'm feeling too lazy to write a detailed account (which would also be pretty dull). But some highlights:

The end of Greece:

Spoiler :

The Pentagon rushed (lets me stay in Nationalism/Organized Religion):

Spoiler :

Charlie took El Trapo:

Spoiler :

I didn't need to run an espionage economy, so just backfilled with passive espionage points (Philosophy, Liberalism, Military Science, Military Tradition, Biology, Democracy, Fascism all stolen.)

The other, unanticipated benefit of the spy city:

Spoiler :

Three Gorges Dam. Helps solve some of my health problems:

Spoiler :

Invasion force:

Spoiler :

Ameerriiccuuhh:

Spoiler :

The first of many cities:

Spoiler :

Razed.

I moved south until I found a hill city that I could easily defend:

Spoiler :

After that, I took out Russia first:

Spoiler :

Russia is, apparently, the land in which Great Artists are born.

Washington DC (Legendary culture):

Spoiler :

Golden Age Two:

Spoiler :

Mutal (contains all teh stuff):

Spoiler :

The end of America:

Spoiler :

One more Wonder-ful(l) city:

Spoiler :

And, on the turn of victory, The Internet:

Spoiler :

This would have been more useful had Lincoln remained alive for one more turn...

Stats and screens:

Spoiler :

Taejo Wang Geon, you have served your people and nation of Korea well. The world now recognizes the true greatness of Seoul, her pigs, her gold, and her rocks.

 

[Doshin]

@Tachywaxon

I've read it! But it was only a skim read, and I want to give it some more attention before posting a reply (you obviously went to a lot of effort, so the least I can do is engage with the answer).

But I'll give you an advance "thanks" here, just so I don't appear ungrateful.

 

[bhavv]

I tried ... a few times, and ended up managing this:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

A bit too late for an Engi bulb, and only 5 cities, but now I will swap to police state and start churning out Trebs / Xbows / Pikes

 

[shakabrade]

@Tachy

I think killing the continent and staying small enough to keep the tech rate can end this game with renaissance conquest.

Your approach (and my pick too ) with HAs is the best cause it puts you on offense since beggining. Others have been overthinking and have read too much deity AW and are totally missing an opportunity this Immortal map gives. Plain, simple HA rush.

Then you have a challenge to get military tech to kill the other continent ASAP. I say Astro and Steel can be researched early enough since that path is pretty direct and pretty bulbable. Mids can get you there with no problem in pretty good time and China capital has the food for pollution free specialists.

HA rush in this game is risk free, makes you neglect defense and save hammers/beakers on defensive units, saves time, saves nerves, kills a continent and gives you AI capitals early. For this map, the best strat, and we always say play the map.

So, Tachy, don't be too modest. BTW, I borrowed a laptop to install and have a shot of civ and killed a continent in early ADs. Also, with some tips from your enslaving guide, I stole 10 workers from China before chariot killed my woody (only one I managed to get). Settled on stone and saved a turn on moving and some turns on connecting it. Got SH, GW, Oracle, Mids at good dates. Got 2 prophets and settled them. Then had to return the laptop back. But I think on a second try, on my desktop back home, it will be better (if I don't get molested by funny odds).

 

[Manco Capac]

The hell! You got Oracle+SH on the heaps of things to do. That's my shakabrade! Always surpassing me. I suppose I was too agressive.

Even my Police State modifier didn't allow me to do them. I guess, I made too many HA's.

Since you got the same results as me and better stuff in addition, I know you'll beat me in years for the final date. You deal better economically than I do. And you got tricks from the master...

 

[Manco Capac]

Settled on stone and saved a turn on moving and some turns on connecting it.

Ha, that's the big difference I see! You did just like Grashopa. I don't really play AW IMM games (the most I played was that AW shucks succession game on EMP), so I did not know what to expect, so I did just like the others did in all AW, settle on hills for the capital. Of course, settling on stone makes the need for TW less urgent and we can start SH much earlier.

That explains the main differences. And given you built the SH, you got third cultural ring faster for horses. I don't know if I should call you lucky bastard...nah! I got heaps of luck in the second german city. Imagine winning against a spear at 2% winning. That's insane. Then, I win one ~35% against a melee unit. So sweet times.

But I think on a second try, on my desktop back home, it will be better

Cough cough. Sure it will! Retrying a map with full map knowledge is always giving better results.

 

[Manco Capac]

@shakabrade

I've rethought about what you said and yes, it terms of efficiency (hammer-wise), killing the neighbours right away are after all the best. But it doesn't change my mind it is still cheap because we just "destroyed" the AW aspect. After that, it has just become an (semi)*-isolation game with bonuses (lots of workers and some cities).

To paraphrase myself better, we didn't play in the spirit of an AW game.

*By semi, I heard we steal techs to catch up a bit.