Wang's Killing Fields (IMM Always War)

[Doshin]

@Revent

It's a good spot, but will take a long time to become productive. Blocking cities have their resources pillaged, which makes it hard for them to grow.

I think you've probably overdone it on the wonder spam . At this point, you need (1) blocking cities; (2) cities to pump out units; (3) cities to pump out Settlers.

In the opening 3000 years, your cities are mostly free to grow unhampered. This gives them time to build a Granary/Barracks/Monument and work some improved resource tiles. After 1000 BC, the AI starts sending stacks. These camp resources, pillage tiles, attack your cities, and generally tie you up.

A block city contributes passively to your empire. It doesn't contribute much in terms of expansion or commerce, but it serves as a lightening rod for AI attacks. This is great, IF you have active cities behind it building Settlers, growing Cottages, and building a stack of your own.

@Robert FIN

Good luck. If I were you, I'd focus on two things: (1) learn how to choke an AI early on with Woodsman II Warriors; (2) learn how to defend with Archers. These skills are transferable to other Civ games.

The thread needs more dancing bananas.

 

[Doshin]

300 AD - 1380 AD (T127-T198).

Spoiler :

This was a big turn set, but it felt like one, self-contained Elepult (Elecha?) attack.

First things first. Great Person number 3 turned out to be... a GSpy:

Spoiler :

I was hoping for a GScientist or GProphet. Since I'm currently the tech leader and running Rep, I settle him for +6 science, +12 espionage.

I tried to 'rubber band' my initial attacks. That is, I absorbed the shock of AI stacks, healed up, and immediately countered.

Spoiler :

After taking the first Chinese city, I had to deal with Alex's stack in the west:

Spoiler :

With his stack gone, it seemed more prudent to attack Alex than Qin. Qin will be a non-issue for the rest of the game, but Alex has the space and cities to put together new stacks. Bismark is too far away to be attacked for now.

In the North:

Spoiler :

Flat land city. It gets razed and replaced by:

In the South-West:

Spoiler :

Also razed. Replaced by:

Sankore was built:

Spoiler :

And GPerson #4 was a GScientist:

Spoiler :

He builds an Academy in my capital.

Another attack:

Spoiler :

I came desperately close to losing my southern stack. Firstly, the attack itself barely squeaked through with a badly hurt Archer delivering the final blow. Then, a German stack appeared out of nowhere. I sacrificed a recently-captured Worker to delay their attack on the city by two turns (Catapults move in, then out of the jungle). This gave me time to heal up and flank attack one of his 'pults, before the rest perished trying to take out my Drill IV Archers.

The Southern attacks were chiefly designed to relieve pressure on my main stack which, at its most impressive, looked something like:

Spoiler :

This marched Westward, where I discovered and captured Athens:

Spoiler :

Athens is on flat land... but I calculate that the Academy, settled GScientist, and GG will be worth the loss of units. It is increasingly boiling down to a fight between myself and Bismark.

Pyongsong was a filler city, founded after Athens' culture collapsed.

More cities:

Spoiler :

No buildings. Razed and replaced by:

Only tech steal so far (I've been neglecting this more than I should have, but most of my hammers have been devoted to units and infrastructure):

Spoiler :

Finally, turning my attention to Germany (edit, I just realized I'm missing a city-capture picture. Thebes was a Greek city, then I captured Frankfurt (not pictured), and then Munich):

Spoiler :

Set end:

Spoiler :

I probably played too long, since now I look at my turns I see many mistakes or troubling signs.

• The worst mistake was teching Divine Right when I had settled the Great Engineer that I had just spawned. I reached DR three turns after the other continent, and I was sure that my Bureaucracy capital + Stone would get me the Spiral Minaret. That would have been so useful. Versailles is still available, of course...
  
• I desperately need more Spies. I have ONE currently... one! And he's only just reached Alex, when Bismark is about to get the tech I most need (Guilds, because I need Banking for Mercantilism).
  
• Why didn't I go to Banking sooner? Arrrgh.
  
• Not GGs have popped up on TOC during this turn set. Bad news: either a religious love-fest took place, or the earlier war led to a capitulation.
  
• Lib went in 1150 AD, T175. The roundness of the world has yet to be proven.
  
• A GSpy has been born on TOC. Not a problem if this came through a Courthouse at low odds, but it's very worrying if someone is already at Communism.
  
• A shrine would be incredibly useful. Alex didn't build one in Athens, and I haven't built one in the Christian holy city.

All in all though, I think I'm in a good position. My attack is becoming a little less efficient since I'm going all out to cripple my continent before they vassal to someone overseas. I don't want a 7 city Bismark to suddenly have access to Rifles.

The last five 'end turn' presses have filled me with dread. I don't even have LBs... how the hell am I supposed to deal with the arrival of Rifles and Grenadiers?

I'd love to build the Statue of Liberty, but suspect that I'm too far behind for that to be realistic. I need to get to Banking now, after which, plans will shift in accordance with developments overseas.

 

[Izuul]

It's 1848 in my game and i just KOd Alex. China has 3 cities (the only 3 he's had all game), and I've yet to explore Germany since every spy I've sent over there has been discovered before making it in... I have a great spy heading up there now, which is something i probably should have done a long time ago. He hasn't sent any mega-stacks at me like i would expect if he really had a ton of cities up there.

Pics of the current situation:

Spoiler :

Alex dies and i recover the workers that I've lost over the course of the game!:

The new war front:

Empire overview, including a few sites I'd still like to settle, but two of them really need naval support to be more than additional liabilities.

The tech situation, which is predictably bleak. Lincoln finished Apollo 2 turns ago.

My GG, who really hasn't seen much action lately. It might be time to take him on the offensive.

I have two short-term goals:

1) Continue the northern offensive push, which should really begin to pick up steam. The further i get, the more the front will narrow allowing me to both funnel more troops NE to the bottleneck, and also delete more old units to improve the economy.

2) Finish teching Combustion, crank out some destroyers, and try to break the blockade that's been crushing all of my coastal cities. I'm working on some dry docks in preparation, and I hope to have 4-5 cities soon that can build naval units. The bad news is that i expect to see enemy destroyers soon. Once Combustion is in, I'll likely turn off research until the continent has been conquered.

That brings me to a couple of questions.

1) Should i leave Bismarck/Qin with one city (probably Guangzhou), use espionage slider, and steal all of their useful techs, or should i just eliminate them entirely and go full research? I have a great spy right now that can be used for espionage. If i go the research route, I'll save him and trigger a GA with the next GP.

2) Should i go straight for Lib > Communism when i resume teching? I assume that i should since the benefits of State Property are likely to be enormous. Huge production boost + giant maintenance savings when I'm likely to have ~35 cities.

 

[Izuul]

The last five 'end turn' presses have filled me with dread. I don't even have LBs... how the hell am I supposed to deal with the arrival of Rifles and Grenadiers?

Get ready

Here's a little sequence of pics that illustrates what happened in my game when the other continent met ours. Note how quickly Alex goes from being hopelessly behind in tech to fielding Cuirs and then Rifles/Cavs. Qin and Bismarck weren't exactly out in front at the time either. I was really caught off guard by it. Rookie mistake?

Spoiler :

 

[Doshin]

@Izuul

Nice play. Before I give advice re. your questions, how many espionage points do you have stored on Bismark and Qin?

 

[Izuul]

@Izuul
Before I give advice re. your questions, how many espionage points do you have stored on Bismark and Qin?

Not many. I have 814 remaining on Qin from a great spy earlier, but he has 4463 on me. I've never bothered to put any on Bismarck since he's so far away. He has 2237 on me.

I do have:

• 1 Great Spy
• Scotland Yard (maybe a mistake), Oxford, and Academy in the capitol

 

[Doshin]

Right. Bring the GSpy back to your capital. Build 5-10 Spies and fortify them in the desert tile 3E of your capital. Build a Confucian Missionary and a Settler. Found the desert city, spread your religion.

As soon as Pacal, Lincoln, Charlie, or Peter capture the city, switch all your EPs to that Civ. The fortified Spies will all have an instant 50% discount and, since the city has only just been captured, they won't have been caught. (= hammer efficient).

Bomb the city and steal Constitution that turn. Steal whatever else you want after that. Build Jails everywhere, and, after you've built a few, rely upon the espionage slider for future research. The city has your religion, is as close to your capital as possible, and is swamped in your culture (= beaker efficient).

Destroying Bismark and Qin will eliminate the 'we yearn to join our motherland' unhappiness in their cities (and, I assume, the 'brothers and sisters of the faith' penalties). You can steal something small from Qin (Compass?) to make sure those EPs don't go to waste.

As for State Property... I don't know. With 17 cities, Mercantilism offers a lot with the free Specialists. The extra production is nice, but what is the limiting factor in your game? Production, or the economy? How many Workshops and Watermills do you have set up? How many can you set up before TOC starts to carpet bomb your resources? I suspect Mercantilism is a stronger civic right now.

That being said, the technology itself shouldn't be neglected. Communism lets you build the other big espionage multiplier, the Intelligence Agency.

 

[Izuul]

I was thinking Communism once the continent has been conquered and i have something along the lines of 35 cities. I would lose a specialist in every city, but my maintenance costs would be significantly reduced, and SP watermills and workshops would be tremendous for hammers. Hammers can be whatever i need them to be.

 

[Revent]

@Revent

It's a good spot, but will take a long time to become productive. Blocking cities have their resources pillaged, which makes it hard for them to grow.

I think you've probably overdone it on the wonder spam . At this point, you need (1) blocking cities; (2) cities to pump out units; (3) cities to pump out Settlers.

In the opening 3000 years, your cities are mostly free to grow unhampered. This gives them time to build a Granary/Barracks/Monument and work some improved resource tiles. After 1000 BC, the AI starts sending stacks. These camp resources, pillage tiles, attack your cities, and generally tie you up.

A block city contributes passively to your empire. It doesn't contribute much in terms of expansion or commerce, but it serves as a lightening rod for AI attacks. This is great, IF you have active cities behind it building Settlers, growing Cottages, and building a stack of your own.

@Robert FIN

Good luck. If I were you, I'd focus on two things: (1) learn how to choke an AI early on with Woodsman II Warriors; (2) learn how to defend with Archers. These skills are transferable to other Civ games.

The thread needs more dancing bananas.

Yeah, I think I went a LITTLE bit over the top on the wonderspam But I think with rep, I can keep my research afloat while I go hard with the expansion. First two mini stacks are coming my way. Going to fight them off and then rapidly settle 3 cities or so. I have enough workers to get them up and running sooner rather than later as well.

revent -

Your second city is going to kill your beakers and you have no exploration for any city sites that can bring in commerce for you. Even with the great wall you still need to stop barbs from forming cities and to keep them from spawning where you want to settle. If you try to elepult you'll find you will be extremely late because you have no beakers and you have no production. When are you going to run those caste scientists? Because that means not growing your cities for whip production.

Look at my screenshots to compare. I messed up the production as well because I settled all commerce sites in my first 3 cities, but I had math by the time of your screenshot.

Fair point. I think perhaps it may be wise to leave that spot for now until I can hook up some metal and get some killing units out. So perhaps city 3 or 4. There's a city in the west that I haven't explored (just a hunch of course ) that will help my expansion so I'll go for that first

 

[Revent]

By the way, I sent a whole bunch of PM's to a lot of people on this thread. It's about an SG AW Deity game. Obviously, it's not going to be easy (probably impossible for someone like me!) but if it was an SG, I think it'd be possible with the hive Let me know if anyone's interested before I go creating a thread

 

[Revent]

Turn 101

Spoiler :

Not doing SO bad I think. I think I'm going to break out with a couple of axes and cats and take a couple of cities off of Qin and switch over the phants and cats.

 

[Grashopa]

Bomb the city and steal Constitution that turn. Steal whatever else you want after that. Build Jails everywhere, and, after you've built a few, rely upon the espionage slider for future research. The city has your religion, is as close to your capital as possible, and is swamped in your culture (= beaker efficient).

This would be cool if it works out. Looking forward to your game Izuul.

 

[Grashopa]

revent - I wish I had settled that western city of yours earlier. It is a good unit pump. With the capital you've got the production surely now.

 

[Revent]

Yeah, definitely. Capital is great production site!

What kind of stack do you think I'll need? Germans will be getting HA's soon as well!

 

[Revent]

I have to say, switching from a defence to an offence is ridiculously hard!
880AD:

Spoiler :

Heading to machinery whilst I can still tech and hoping to go engineering ASAP. Have been at 0% since the BC's Germans getting lb's soon and already have phants. Chinese are crippled and down to three cities now. Alex has been going crazy expanding and is near my border now. With him sending all those stacks at me and expanding, his nearby cities must not be well guarded. Think I may tech HBR so I can do a quick blitzkreig and raze a lot of his cities ASAP but most likely not. First target now is to kill off that german city I labelled because it gives him phants. Following that, I need to whip in some more axes and hwachas to keep the offence going. Also need more archers. I currently have one super axe (woods III and almost at medic 3) and two super archers which have become very powerful! Cannot wait until lb's arrive as these guys will make my life a lot easier on the defence.

EP wise. Going to set it ALL on the Germans so I can steal off Monarchy and Feudalism.

How's it looking? I think it looks tough. I need to get to engineering ASAP though to stand any chance.

 

[Robert FIN]

Woohoo!

I survived to 1190AD!! I played like Monarch lvl guys!! I had problems with research slider. Immortal maintenance costs are mad! I can't hold them!!! I lost when Bismarck got Elepults! They crushed my archer and other classical era units.... Still I am happy!! I was better then we expected!!

 

[GKey]

Early elepult or Hwachaphant proved to be good strategy in AW maps. Dealing with AW economy is more difficult however.


So what would be better approach to handle economy here? Granted this map is not cottage paradise like previous one.

Still cottages? Specs? Spies? Fail gold? Bit of everything? Rex to 10 cities by 1AD lol or stay small?

 

[bhavv]

I'm going to give this a shot. With lots and lots and lots and lots of reloading of course.

I'm doing the same now

Has anyone tried engineering bulbing? Evern though you have to research all the pre reqs youself, but then you get protective xbows trebs and pikes fairly quickly.

I'll try it, but always war will hurt.

 

[Grashopa]

Hwachas are ridiculously good. Alexander for example builds all metal units no archers.

1500 AD

Spoiler :

Here is mercantilism tripling the freaking beakers after a lot of micro. Germany is dead and Alexander has 2 cities left.

And here is Forbidden Palace, Versailles, Statue of Liberty, Oxford and communism just in. At the end of the GA I'll have destroyers and be in US,FS,Eman for rush buy purposes.

Look at how mercantilism translates into the huge number of beakers now. And if you save your Great People and managed to capture the MoM imagine how huge that would be. With all this land you can burn great people on GAs and earn more beakers than bulbing them.

save: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/68321241/civ/WAW AD-1500.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[ABigCivFan]

I have been experimenting with a different strategy, although with map knowledge but some tactics can be applied in the future AWs.

1. Cut throat choke on the closest AIs. initial choke with W2 warriors, then quickly follow up by chariots since we have horse. Barracks before building chariots. train chariots on barbs to get to C1+M1 or C2, then send to AI land for heavy pillaging. 2 Chariots+1 W2 warrior per AI. Keep them alive for pillaging and replace loses. Pillaged cottages and improvements provide good cash too. Station W2 warrior near important resources such as food/horse/metal to prevent AI from improving these resources. Killing archers also provide good XP toward the first GG. When done effectively, you will basically defend against a single AI.

2. Deny key wonders from the AIs, i.e. build them yourself GW, Mids, Oracle, GL, AP, Sankore, Spiral, SOL, Kremlin, 3 Gorg Dam, Cristor.

3. Found a religion. If your first GP is not a GProphet, then Oracle to COL, if you get a GProphet, then bulb Theology, and Oracle MC.

4. No trade route, no tech trade, infrastructure and Rep specialists become more important. With stolen workers, you can grow key cities faster, chop/whip Granary, forge, library, AP buildings and markets.

5. Set up the strong hold in the path of AIs near strategic resources (horse/ivory/metal) and concentrate defenses here.

6. AIs on your conti are either choked or at war hence teching slowly. The Aim with this strategy is to pull ahead of them and conquer the while conti with a swift war when ready i.e. Cuirs. Medieval wars are too slow and cost too much maint to wage. So less focus on EP early to mid game but more on self-research/bulbing. Note that you will need EP if this is Deity AW.

7. If we can secure the whole conti reasonably early, we should be able to build an empire with huge amt of land and economical output, at least staying par on tech with the other conti. Build a mobile network among cities, have a good size of highly promoted troops (Cavs/tanks, cannons/arty). Later build railroad. Maybe a small navy just to protect the seafood and pick off some AI landing ships.

8. Sneak in some spies to the other Conti to explore. later go for space while nuking the other AIs.