Wang's Killing Fields (IMM Always War)

[GKey]

Grats on your victory Doshin!


Settling on stone was clearly superior due to river and was my choice too. Also while it's fricking impressive to get rid of AI's in early AD's, like Tachy did, I doubt it is a best choice in terms of economy. You lose quite a lot beakers by removing opportunity to tech steal. From Alex I got:

• Mathematics
• IW
• Construction
• HBR
• Fishing
• Sailing
• Calendar
• Monarchy
• Feudalism
• Metal Casting
• Machinery
• Guilds

Now what was I teching myself?!

Spoiler :

I got Stonehenge+GW+Mids in capital and oracled CoL. That proved to be good deny btw: It's 1310 AD and non of AI's om my landmass don't have CoL yet and yes, I am tech leader

Defensive tactic would not work here, Bismark was real pain this game: How many archers you need to defend from such SoD? Not enough!

Putting hammers into more archers and spears is a waste here. AI promotes its phants C2 and they obliterate anything but phants with C2+Formation promotions. I made my blocking city to be HE and settled there 3 GG's so I was getting lvl 3 Phants out of the gate every 1/2 turns.

After fending his first attack and losing 5 highly promoted archers, I went on offensive defense with 4 GG Axes, which are now super healers

and super killers

and phants.


After oracling CoL and teching Currency (with low slider you want these markets ASAP!) I've found myself with bunch of highly promoted phants, so I was thinking "Would be really cool to make Cuirassiers from them" . Yes I am talking about Lib-MT! After all this war tactic proved to be that superior, it have to be called exploit already. My AI's are very slow tech wise and hopefully other landmass is backward too! So I went Music (Great Artist), CS, Bulbed Philo, Started GA and milked some Great Scientists to double bulb Education while teching Nationalism.

Then I finished Gunpowder and and banked gold to upgrade my phants into Cuirassiers.

Now your phants are just food, Bismark!

Going to Blitzkrieg him now.

I was kind of proud of myself until Grashopa posted that screeny with dominated continent in 1120 AD and immensive tech rate...

Jees, on previous much easier map I dominated our landmass only in 1200 AD... need to go back to noble...

We demand emans... err thorough walkthrough with settling pattern (and rate!), tech/build path, city specialization and a few saves!

I also expect you Tachy share your progress with us, so we can compare espionage and early domination approach here.

I also don't want waste tons of workers turns on terraforming that jungle to the west myself - let Alex do the job. May be I will steal some more from him meanwhile?

 

[Manco Capac]

I doubt it is a best choice in terms of economy. You lose quite a lot beakers by removing opportunity to tech steal. From Alex I got

Yes, I know the downside of killing the AI's too early on the highest levels. That's why I said it is optimizing in terms of hammers, but I see in term of beakers, that's another story.

Will show what I did. I have like 50 pictures now. Just need the kick to write that down.

Economically I am really in bad shape, but the game is won. I am stopped at writing...pretty terrible, ain't it?

Also, I finally got the karma (but I'm not angry this time like I always do ), I lost two nicely promoted HA's to a sword in a city and that sword didn't get scratched. I had a twice ~33%. Then, I attacked an archer at 99,1% and lost.
Now, this is justice of my previous extreme luck in that picture with "ULTRA LUCK" notification.

AP was built elsewhere...I'm not gonna get trolled...must not forget.

so we can compare espionage and early domination approach here.

Got an GEngineer. Couldn't do any espionage. Don't know what to do with it right now.
I'll have marble soon, so if I get chance on the GLib, that will feel a waste.

 

[Doshin]

@bhavv

Glad to see you're on board. I'm interested to see how your approach works out: I'm not sure how more Trebs + Protective Xbows have to offer than Hwachas + Elephants, but you're going to be attacking much earlier than I managed.

@Tachywaxon

I don't see the issue with a HA rush. All is fair in love and Always War. Mind you, Grashopa seems to have struck the best balance between claiming pre-improved land and crushing the AI. The Colossus was a good wonder to capture too.

Self-tech Theology and burn the GE on the AP? GLib will lead to a quicker finish date though, I'm sure.

@GKey

The only better than Elephants in AW are Ballista Elephants. After a while, they just become a source of free XP, even killing Cavalry at +80% odds. Looking forward to seeing the aftermath of the attack.

 

[bhavv]

I'm starting again when I get time though because I wasted too much time building libraries in other cities and didn't have them set up to mass produce trebs quickly enough. I need to build Granary > Forge > Barracks > Walls > Castle > trebs trebs trebs in all non capital cities. I also settle all my GGs in the capital and can pop out Drill 4 or Guerilla 3 xbows every 2 turns from around 100 AD.

Well, I don't need to start all over again, I have a 975 BC save right before the oracle in city 2 is finished, and cities 3-5 are settled, so I'll start from there again and not waste time with libraries.

Need to get whipping granarys and forges asap in all 5 cities. Castle economy is fun for protective, I had one of the AI throw 6-8 horse archers at my capital and they lost to a single xbow.

In my current game I also had two super Xbows with 36 XP and Drill 4 plus Guerilla 3 - 5-7 first srikes, +25% hills attack, +50% withdrawal rate. They are amazing against alsmost everything except HAs, but I had a couple of spears and pikes upgraded to combat 2 and formation to defend against mounted units.

 

[Izuul]

I haven't had time to finish my game, but the outcome seems certain. I'm going to finish off Bismarck and Lincoln is going to win space.

Now that i have a bit of a feel for AW, i would like to play again and be more aggressive. That was my biggest mistake throughout this game. I might take another shot at this map.

 

[Manco Capac]

Quite, quite disappointed. After all, I've done the biggest fail move by rushing recklessly (while shakabrade had the chance to oracle something juicy).

I'm barely capable to stride in techs.

Lol at the Glib in 900 AD on the other continent.
I suppose a super aggressive REX should be done instead at the expense of the tech rate, so the cities are set up earlier.

Perhaps, I should retry with a regular AW format.

 

[Doshin]

Why don't you build the UoS?

With 14 cities, you can already double your current research potential by building Temples and Monasteries (+52 BPT at present if you stop building Wealth). And there is room for 20 more cities. GE should guarantee that you'll get it.

I don't like to advise you because you're a better player. But this is my thread, so

 

[GKey]

Not exactly aftermath, just 15 turns later

Spoiler :

Bismark gone, switch to Alex.

lost 4 Cuirs during all this.
Stole Compass and will steal Engineering from Alex once he get it (need not push him too hard then).

Pacal, Lincoln and Peter joined the fun. They are somewhat advanced.

The question is rush Astro or focus economy now...

@Tachywaxon, that was expected. Luck of foreign trade really hurts. I am not sure if super aggressive REX is best thing to do here too. Fail gold economy while beeline Banking may be... From previous AW map I've learned you should not rex too much before you get Banking, but then again that screeny from Grashopa ... He certainly knows something I don't. I am still waiting for his writeup.

 

[GKey]

@Tachy, looking at your save, moar spec's with Mids. Tons of cottages that aren't going to be worked any soon. Hagia Sophia?

 

[Manco Capac]

@Tachy, looking at your save, moar spec's with Mids. Tons of cottages that aren't going to be worked any soon. Hagia Sophia?

Yeah, possibly I should have tried to switch to specs, but for some reasons, in iso, I always feel growing and growing is better, especially when I'm backward.

I know people here are disliking Hagia Sophia and despite the so-so improvements discounts, given the huge lands to improve, I thought the returns would be huge.

@Tachywaxon, that was expected. Luck of foreign trade really hurts. I am not sure if super aggressive REX is best thing to do here too. Fail gold economy while beeline Banking may be... From previous AW map I've learned you should not rex too much before you get Banking, but then again that screeny from Grashopa ... He certainly knows something I don't. I am still waiting for his writeup.

First, in AW, you never get foreign trade routes, or you meant stealing their techs?
It's not just the lost beakers, even though the AI's spent huge amounts of their hammers into kamikaze units, they still improve their lands, which is a thing I cannot catch up if I destroy them.

 

[GKey]

I actually like Hagia Sophia, especially if you get it early. But here you'd rather get fail gold from it? I mean you don't need that many more workers, but you desperately need more commerce here?

What's the logic behind growing is better, especially if you are backward? Do I miss something?

 

[Manco Capac]

What's the logic behind growing is better, especially if you are backward? Do I miss something?

Prolly there isn't. It's just that cities don't grow intanteneously and those improvements aren't done instanteneously, so setting those up earlier would "catch up" the land "backwardness" I created. The best was probably to set core commerce cities and then the rest would be hammers cities along communism.

Honestly, I think I'm kinda clueless economically-wise. I think I should sit back and try once for all to learn how to set up a balanced economy. This is my last weakness, which happens to be a big flaw.

Also, I had to accept I couldn't catch up how advanced were people in their true AW games because I burnt down my chances to do it.

 

[Htadus]

What's the logic behind growing is better, especially if you are backward? Do I miss something?

If you have the 3 economy techs, then the size will only help turn around the economy and that much faster. In this case, granary, lib, market and CH in each city will turn around the economy at a rapid rate and once the building are out of the way building wealth will do an excellent job to catch up to the other continent. GW and Mds work really well in this game.

 

[GKey]

Even in normal isolation REX is questionable due to luck of foreign trade routs, inability to tech broker. But there are strategies, you can't apply in AW, like beeline Astro - make contact - tech broker.

In Tachy's situation I'd rather stay small, build wonders for fail gold, while run Rep specs - bulb myself out of the financial hole, until I reach Banking. Mercantilism + Whip banks - best building with low tech slider, only then you can afford REX.

All this highly situational of cause, IMO on this map we don't have many city spots that will quickly pay for them self.

 

[Manco Capac]

I didn't make Hagia Sophia a fail gold target because it was already a highly risky wonder given Theo was bulbed (or teched) in the BC IIRC. AP was built in the early AD. I was gambling on getting it right now with the GEngineer. Given the huge number of improvements to be done because I killed who could do that in my place, I thought for this particular/situational case, Hagia Sophia would be a strong move. Of course, if I stay small, it simply disqualify/lessen the need of getting Hagia Sophia.

Of course, if that was a lower level like Monarch, expanding like weed would be more justifiable than IMM.

Do you think, Gkey, I should try again from the 1 AD checkpoint? To see if I can improve it.
Anyways, we're not in a xOTM or SGOTM game, so this is not really a race (although it is nice to see what's the most optimal).

The big problem with the fail gold tactic is by ~450 AD, I get Currency (which is greatly need!). Then, the wonders possibilities are greatly reduced, so is the fail gold strategy. And beelining DR is so-so and gambling on SM is not that hot given it could be strong with 20-40 cities.
And anyways, DR came a bit early at 500 AD I think. Again, it limited my fail gold capacity.

Indeed, going all out for HA's stunted badly my initial economical build up. shakabrade, by settling on the stone, perhaps had opportunities to deal better the situation.

 

[GKey]

Tachy,
I find our land lucking riverside grassland / floodplains. Hence if you go all cottages, you going to work lots of 2F1C tiles for 10 turns each. Not good. Coast tiles would be better. So... I honestly doubt it's manageable without spy economy. Without ability to tech steal specs would be better then cottages here.

You already get some distant cities from Alex in 1 AD, do you? Then maintenance kicks in and you can't afford wasting beakers on Theology-DR for AP ans Spiral. You need Currency (whip markets), Guilds (grocers) and mainly Banking. Banks and Mercantilism will give significant boost.

You can try switch to cast ASAP and bulb whatever you can, like MC and Machinery. If you get wrong GP you always can burn it for Golden Age to switch from slavery to cast and vice verse.

Still I'd rather replay this from the scratch.

Previous Aw took me 2 months of replays reloads and retries. Well that was not all my fault. I moved to new apartment then, and I moved to southern Brooklyn just 1 week before Sandy arrived, 2 weeks without power does not really help play Civ That was really caveman to cosmos.

 

[shakabrade]

Tachy, I killed all AIs only because I got 3 non GSpies. If I got GSpy, I'd keep them choked and alive with 3-4 cities and without metals. Regarding my continent domination, I captured only good cities like capitals and improved riverside. Razed 70%. Also, I had CoL just in time to chop/whip courthouses with all those stolen/captured workers.

In our situation, I saw only high food cities worthwhile since dominating continent early implies specialist economy and early as possible Astro and Steel. Later, you can whip an army with that food. Some cottages are still needed to keep you from strike once you go into final soulution mode.

Got lucky and oversea AIs had diffrent religions. In my game, everything was perfect for early conquest. But by no means domination. I don't think domination without cottage spam and Banks everywhere is possible.

Seoul was my production city with 30 while I planned for Beijing to spam unpolluted scientists to bulb all the way.

I don't know whether I'll be as lucky next time.
If I got the chance to play. There's quite a lot of academic work to be done.

My advice is basically this: stay small. Around 10 cities (350-400 bpt). Don't forget you need some coastal cities for galleons. Later, raze everything on the other continent. You don't have economy to support it. Perform blockades on coastal cities to make AI produce galleys and caravels. And learn to use galleon bridge.

So this is how I won in theory.

Regarding others, I am not neglecting you. It is only Tachy and I are mutually spying on each others posts.

Grats, Doshin on your win.

I am sorry I have only 50 MB of internet left on my phone and can't afford to see all those images. I am sure it is a great win and am looking forward reading this thread once I get back home.

 

[DanielTorrence]

Hwachas are ridiculously good. Alexander for example builds all metal units no archers.

1500 AD...

thas crazy. I don't even get that amount of beakers in my normal games at that date! Thanks for the write-up and the inspirations here, that goes to all the great players that share their expierience in this threat.

@Grashopa: you said you attacked around 400 BC. What size and units did you have in your stack then, and how many cities settled? I am trying to bridge the gap between your ~1100 BC save and the attack...

 

[bhavv]

Hwachas are good. Trebs are ridiculously better

I like to promote Hwachas with drill and use them to attack stacks in the open field, but wait for CR trebs for city attack. Also as I mentioned earlier, if you can make your capital capable of pumping out 10 XP units, you get CR3 trebs plus drill IV or Guerilla III (50% withdrawal and 25% hills attack) xbows which are insanely strong up to gunpowder units. Im being trolled too much with early game RNG on my retries though, plus Im trying to settle on the stone instead of the hill which makes a far stronger production capital, but delays acquisition of the horses and early chariots for barb defense. Great wall would be nice, but it would polute my GE pool, I only want Mids, Hanging Gardens, and maybe Hagia in my capital, oracle in second city.

For the 10 XP units, 3 GGs and Vassalage would be needed. I got the GGs easily and will try fighting defensive wars to build up some super xbows before I have vassalage.

 

[Revent]

@Bhavv, spies are good though