Want lower gas prices? Drill, Baby Drill! Or Not.

[El_Machinae]

No, that's not true. We know there's a budget. It's been well-described. What we don't know is the necessity of sticking to the budget or the harms caused by ignoring it.

But when it comes to harming others, and recompense (especially when the harm was caused for self-gratification), the moral clock starts ticking when you should have started caring.

There's no other real solution to this moral dilemma, because the self-gratification creates a bias that encourages ignorance. If the moral onus starts when you're convinced that there's an issue, then you're just implicitly encouraged to be willfully blind.

I'm not saying people have a moral duty to begin recompense efforts now. It's merely wiser, since the recompense obligations will be much higher the long they're willfully delayed.

 

[onejayhawk]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Your statements are much more political than rational. The factual support is shaky at best.

If you want a moral dilemma, try focusing on the treatment of women by jihadists

J

 

[JollyRoger]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Your statements are much more political than rational. The factual support is shaky at best.

If you want a moral dilemma, try focusing on the treatment of women by jihadists

J

http://www.dallasobserver.com/2008-02-21/news/pentecostal-preacher-sherman-allen-turns-out-to-be-reverend-spanky/full/

 

[onejayhawk]

http://www.dallasobserver.com/2008-02-21/news/pentecostal-preacher-sherman-allen-turns-out-to-be-reverend-spanky/full/

I didn't know you were a member.

As a moderate Christian, I condemn the excesses and state that he does not represent the teaching of scripture. Prosecute to the full extent of the law.

Now, can we do something about the women who are being raped and mutilated?

J

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Your statements are much more political than rational. The factual support is shaky at best.

If you want a moral dilemma, try focusing on the treatment of women by jihadists

J

You're sorry I feel that way?!? WTF man. My reasoning is fine. It's a very clear combination of the best of libertarian ethics, the Golden Rule, and Kantian ethics. I cannot see how your stance is Christian other than the 'might makes right' perversions.

This conversation was about how I live my own life. My moral calculus is that I should try to mitigate the harms I've caused, especially when I've knowingly caused them. In order to avoid a pro-ignorance bias, I figure I become responsible (morally) at the point where I should have known. I think choosing a time-point where there was a broad consensus amongst experts and global leaders is a fine timepoint.

In 1992, we knew we were playing Russian Roulette, but with someone else downstream of the barrel. That we didn't know the number of chambers in the cylinder (the true odds of causing harm) nor the caliber (the amount of harm) doesn't really change much. If we pull the trigger, we're on the hook for the consequences. The best I can do is reduce the amount of pull I'm putting on the trigger.

I know you reserve the right to pull that trigger as fast as possible. I guess you do have that right (we don't know the odds, and you're profiting from pulling the trigger). You can understand the irritation, though, when the cost of pulling the trigger will not be apportioned according to how much people pulled.

Now, can we do something about the women who are being raped and mutilated?

We should shovel over money to despotic regimes as fast as we can, no questions asked. Legally empower our corporations to bribe. Legally empower our governments to intentionally destabilize. That way Nigerian, OPEC, and Iranian oil all stay as cheap as possible. It's vastly cheaper buying from a bribed despot who'll oppress his people in a hands-off way. Plus, the tremendous upside of this being awesome for human rights.

People can care about more than one thing at a time OJH, this hand-wringing about foreign women is a Red Herring.

 

[onejayhawk]

You're sorry I feel that way?!? WTF man. My reasoning is fine. It's a very clear combination of the best of libertarian ethics, the Golden Rule, and Kantian ethics. I cannot see how your stance is Christian other than the 'might makes right' perversions.

This conversation was about how I live my own life. My moral calculus is that I should try to mitigate the harms I've caused, especially when I've knowingly caused them. In order to avoid a pro-ignorance bias, I figure I become responsible (morally) at the point where I should have known. I think choosing a time-point where there was a broad consensus amongst experts and global leaders is a fine timepoint.

In 1992, we knew we were playing Russian Roulette, but with someone else downstream of the barrel. That we didn't know the number of chambers in the cylinder (the true odds of causing harm) nor the caliber (the amount of harm) doesn't really change much. If we pull the trigger, we're on the hook for the consequences. The best I can do is reduce the amount of pull I'm putting on the trigger.

I know you reserve the right to pull that trigger as fast as possible. I guess you do have that right (we don't know the odds, and you're profiting from pulling the trigger). You can understand the irritation, though, when the cost of pulling the trigger will not be apportioned according to how much people pulled.

Yes. I feel sorry when someone is defrauded.

We should shovel over money to despotic regimes as fast as we can, no questions asked. Legally empower our corporations to bribe. Legally empower our governments to intentionally destabilize. That way Nigerian, OPEC, and Iranian oil all stay as cheap as possible. It's vastly cheaper buying from a bribed despot who'll oppress his people in a hands-off way. Plus, the tremendous upside of this being awesome for human rights.

How is that a change?

People can care about more than one thing at a time OJH, this hand-wringing about foreign women is a Red Herring.

I spent two years in Iraq.

J

 

[Arwon]

I spent two years in Iraq.

J

okay I'll admit I'm struggling with working this one out even given the low bar you're setting in terms of reasoning

 

[El_Machinae]

How is that a change?

It's not. It's a statement about how the status quo is a real problem. At the local level, all we can really do is try to harness our own international corporations. Legislate ethical standards that apply cross-border.

It might turn out that I'm not being defrauded. I'm essentially buying insurance regarding a probabilistic event. History will have to judge whether my choices were sufficiently Kantian, or sufficiently applying the Golden Rule.

The larger risk is that I will be outright stolen from. People will disproportionately pull the trigger, and then when the blast comes, they'll try to ensure all the costs are foisted as far as possible. The Russian Roulette analogy stands. The alternatives I have regarding my conscience is to consign myself to paying my fair share if there turns out to be a bullet in the chamber OR actively reduce how much I'm pulling the trigger.

 

[onejayhawk]

It's not. It's a statement about how the status quo is a real problem. At the local level, all we can really do is try to harness our own international corporations. Legislate ethical standards that apply cross-border.

It might turn out that I'm not being defrauded. I'm essentially buying insurance regarding a probabilistic event. History will have to judge whether my choices were sufficiently Kantian, or sufficiently applying the Golden Rule.

The larger risk is that I will be outright stolen from. People will disproportionately pull the trigger, and then when the blast comes, they'll try to ensure all the costs are foisted as far as possible. The Russian Roulette analogy stands. The alternatives I have regarding my conscience is to consign myself to paying my fair share if there turns out to be a bullet in the chamber OR actively reduce how much I'm pulling the trigger.

Becoming independent of OPEC is much more reliable insurance.

I am coming to the conclusion that Jihadism, for lack of a proper description, is not fringe. That IMO is a much larger problem than human contributions to climate change. It is also one which is potentially more tractable.

J

 

[El_Machinae]

In many ways I agree! Well, I am not sure if becoming independent is the best way to help their women. I'm not saying it's the wrong tack. I'm just not sure it's the best way. Forcing our corporations to adopt ethical standards would go a long way, too. Plus, it would help wherever our fingers are in 3rd world pies, not just in oil-producing countries. This is something that can be pursued through political activism. And it's not like these are either/or propositions

I'll agree that dictatorial, women-oppressing cultures are a strong source of human suffering, one well worth battling. But we do have the ability to wage more than one campaign at a time!

Additionally, I don't see how supporting the electric car market is contra to the goal of becoming independent of OPEC. Like it or not, without deliberate trade barriers, we'll always be shoveling money towards OPEC when they can always underbid our other drilling efforts.

My analogy of the roulette is still strong, OJH. It gives a 84% chance that your prediction (it will cause negligible harms) is correct, which I think it rather fair given the concerns from the scientific community. BUT, if you do pro-actively pull that trigger AND there are harms caused, your moral liability kicks in. Now, if you were to use the resources generated by oil consumption to aid more efficient causes, I make zero bones with that (in fact, I approve). But the oil consumed for pure leisure purposes or for wealth-reinvestment still becomes a moral millstone.

Does that make sense? If my current consumption has $30/ton externalities (if the 1/6 chance is triggered), money spent aiding the plight of OPEC women, etc. can be counted against that. If it turns out that the externalities are vastly higher than $30, the new moral onus kick in, in retrospect. I can either have pro-actively limited my (predicted) externalities ahead of time, or assume responsibility for them.