War Chariot vs Knight

[Quetz]

Just wondering if anyone can justify why the much easier to obtain War Chariot is so much stronger than the late-coming and only-available-at-the-end-of-the-mounted-line Knight. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the WC is quite overpowered for its time.

Comparative stats (and sorry, don't know how to make the nifty civ icons )

War Chariot: 12 attack, 9 def, 3 move, 50% bonus vs archers (this is kind of rubbing salt into an open woundh here,) 25% withdraw. Available at Warhorses (3200 beakers)

Knight: 11 attack, 9 def, 2 move. No bonus vs archers, or anything else. 35% withdraw. Avaiable at Armored Cavalry (6400! beakers)

So for the cost of researching Armored Cavalry, which is literally 2x the research of Warhorses, you get: -50% vs archers, 1 less move, 1 less attack strength, and +10% withdraw.

Something is not right there. Were these units accidentaly switched or something? Maybe the Knight should be at Warhorses, Or at least be at/near the power level of the Mercurian Knight UU, Repentant Angel, which has 16 total strength and can still use weapons..

 

[cIV_khanh93]

the repenant angel weakens by one every time it defeats a living unit... it s a special case ;p
ALthough, the balance between those two units it a little off...

 

[WarKirby]

MY thoughts:

Boost knights up to 14

Lower War Chariot Def. to 8, and increase Knight to 10

Cut that 50% vs archers down to 25%. Then take it away from the war chariot and give to the knight instead.
Also give Knights +25% vs melee units
And give knights more collateral damage
And swap the movement values. Chariots are slower than mounted units, because they have those rickety, friction inducing wheels.

 

[Zharkov]

I would just lower defense of the chariot. Then the knight would have multi combat roles and the chariot only attack.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Actualy, I disagree with all of you here.
The war chariot does what it is suposed to do. Be a Late-Mid Game Powerhouse.

The knight on the other hand comes later, and at a greater cost allows you to field another 4 heavy cavalery units.


The knight does not seem to be ment to replace the chariot, but to suplement it. Hence the 4 unit national cap on both.

The rolle of the knight in my games was always to be on the other side of the front, on the flancs of chariots or in a similar position, and support them rather than replacing them.

For example, the chariots tear up that Stack of Doom, and the Knights than chase down the escaping units (flleing is quite an isue currently).

Or, knights can be used to hunt down enemy workers and sole units, when you need something stronger than a horse archer, but don't want to waste your chariot on them.


In vanila civ terms, I have always found the Chariot to be the Modern Armor, and the Knight to be the Mechanised Infantry. And, when supported properly they both preform the rolles they are intended for quite nicely.

 

[Quetz]

I had a feeling someone would say what PPQ did, but the question is: Why is the late coming unit supporting the (much) earlier one, for much higher beakers? It just doesn't make sense for it to be the way it is. The stronger, way-higher research unit should be supplemented by the weaker one, not the other way around. A discussion on the uses of Knights is kind of a moot point. They are a slower, stronger Horseman. War Chariots are city-destroyers.

Not to mention Knights are the final unit in the cavalry line. As I said, this would be fine if it was Knights at Warhorses (which does make sense) and War Chariots at Armored Cavalry.

Agree @ warkirby

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I had a feeling someone would say what PPQ did, but the question is: Why is the late coming unit supporting the (much) earlier one, for much higher beakers?

Exacly becouse of that.
The War chariot comes early, and can decimate stacks. But there is no way to properly support it. It still has to vait up for infantry to catch up if you want to hold anything. And horse archers are willingly inadequate for the role. (their role is a diferent one thou)

And with war chariots, each turn is precius. You only have 1 atack per turn. And you can not afort to waste it on hunting down anything but the prime targets.

This is similar to the role that tanks had in the real world. Only with the advent of mechanised infantry (Knights in our case) did the ability come for your troops to be trully efective. Comanders often used armor only to hit prime targets, knowing that risking their armor being in the wrong place could lose them the war.

Early on, you are not going to win any batles with your war chariots alone. And you are definitively not taking any reasonably well defended city.
So the thing that remains to you is to break enemy SODs in the open field.

Knights serve as an expencive way of suplementing your chariots.
The reasons why they are expencive and come late is that they are vital for bringing out the best in your chariots. I newer use knights alone, nor do I use chariots without knight support.

By the same logic, you could simply ask why does MechInf come later in vanila civ than the tank.
It also costs more, comes later and has less firepower.

 

[Rutee]

Mech Infantry has 32 strength to a tank's 24, so that would be an interesting piece of logic. Especially since, IIRC, they intercept aircraft.

I think that the idea to switch them has merit. The stronger units should generally be the higher tech ones, after all.

 

[Honor]

I support WarKirby's suggestion.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Honestly, FFH has chariots completely wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_tactics

Early chariots were used as an archery platform and to transport troops to battle. They went obsolete fairly early, because cavalry is more efficient...although carriages continued to be used for transport, obviously.

War chariots were of dubious use, were slower, and definitely went obsolete once heavy horses and stirrups were available.

If I had control of the works, the basic chariot would require exploration+animal husbandry, power 1 move 3 cargo 1.

War chariot would add bronze working as a requirement, high power low defense, massive penalty to city attack, move 2 cargo 1. Basically an early stack destroyer.

I'd also add an intermediate cavalry unit at warhorses. Weaker than a knight, allows metal weapons, move 3. Call it a lancer or heavy cavalry. Knights were actually a fairly late development, suitable for a path-ending tier 4 unit. Knights should have a higher strength and collateral damage...they were the main battle tanks of their era.

 

[Honor]

I support Vermicious Knid's suggestion even more.

 

[Rutee]

A land transport, eh? I have exactly one problem with this suggestion; Navies are too slow. I think the idea is a good one (I've found moving defense forces in to be a far bigger blocker to my expansion then any other logistic concern), but shouldn't naval units move faster if we're going to have 3 strength land transports? I mean, come on, its' already useless enough. Removing the last function it's got..? =/

 

[Vermicious Knid]

A land transport, eh? I have exactly one problem with this suggestion; Navies are too slow. I think the idea is a good one (I've found moving defense forces in to be a far bigger blocker to my expansion then any other logistic concern), but shouldn't naval units move faster if we're going to have 3 strength land transports? I mean, come on, its' already useless enough. Removing the last function it's got..? =/

I have no problem with making naval units better. After all, it isn't like the AI can use them.

 

[Rutee]

I have no problem with making naval units better. After all, it isn't like the AI can use them.

Why the hell is that? BTS can, to the best of my recollection.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Why the hell is that? BTS can, to the best of my recollection.

Dunno...but it is pretty sad. I won't even play maps with multiple unconnected continents in FF...it is a waste of my time.

 

[Quetz]

Honestly, FFH has chariots completely wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_tactics

Early chariots were used as an archery platform and to transport troops to battle. They went obsolete fairly early, because cavalry is more efficient...although carriages continued to be used for transport, obviously.

War chariots were of dubious use, were slower, and definitely went obsolete once heavy horses and stirrups were available.

If I had control of the works, the basic chariot would require exploration+animal husbandry, power 1 move 3 cargo 1.

War chariot would add bronze working as a requirement, high power low defense, massive penalty to city attack, move 2 cargo 1. Basically an early stack destroyer.

I'd also add an intermediate cavalry unit at warhorses. Weaker than a knight, allows metal weapons, move 3. Call it a lancer or heavy cavalry. Knights were actually a fairly late development, suitable for a path-ending tier 4 unit. Knights should have a higher strength and collateral damage...they were the main battle tanks of their era.

I support all of this, including making naval units faster (please...) In fact, though I was just thinking of the War Chariot to begin with, the fact is that using any other early cavalry than Chariots is pretty pointless, since Horsemen/Archers can't use weapons, while Chariots can.

This would be a big help towards the inevitable 25-turn marches, too..

 

[Rutee]

The thought occured to me that while I strongly support chariots as transports, I also highly recommend that more guardsmen cavalry be made. Agri/ari is strong enough without needing 4 Royal Guards to cover your SoD's chariots from assassins.

 

[Lone Wolf]

AI can't use land transports in principle.

The AI isn't so good at using its navy, but in FfH its naval incompetence comes from failure to understand crew promotions and low capacity of the ships. I have seen the AI's land troops on my shores when using Galleons, through.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

AI can't use land transports in principle.

I believe you...but why is this the case? I've never noticed the AI hunters using hawks...

Seems like it should be possible to make it work.

 

[Quetz]

AI can't use land transports in principle.

The AI isn't so good at using its navy, but in FfH its naval incompetence comes from failure to understand crew promotions and low capacity of the ships. I have seen the AI's land troops on my shores when using Galleons, through.

both issues easily fixable, remove crew promotions (pointless) and increase ship capacity