War Chariot vs Knight

[Valkrionn]

FF has already increased ship capacity, and made several fixes. It's only now that I'm seeing ANY landings at all.... never saw them in FfH.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I thought about something that could actualy be a flavorefull solution to the knights.
Leave them the way they are in all respects, but give them a 50% bonus vs other cavalery.

Sudenly, we have another use for the knight. To hunt down chariots.


It would make sense since he is a heavily armored and fast enough to catch cavalery.

I definitively think that chariots should be faster, becouse the horse and rider do not have all that armor to weigh them down.
And chariots are much more suted to trample units than knights.

 

[Rutee]

I thought about something that could actualy be a flavorefull solution to the knights.
Leave them the way they are in all respects, but give them a 50% bonus vs other cavalery.

Sudenly, we have another use for the knight. To hunt down chariots.


It would make sense since he is a heavily armored and fast enough to catch cavalery.

I definitively think that chariots should be faster, becouse the horse and rider do not have all that armor to weigh them down.
And chariots are much more suted to trample units than knights.

Uh, a horse has a /chariot/ and pretty much the same amount of armor to pull on top of that...

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Uh, a horse has a /chariot/ and pretty much the same amount of armor to pull on top of that...

But in a chariot there are 2 or more horses.
So take the same weight, but double or tripple the engine.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

But in a chariot there are 2 or more horses.
So take the same weight, but double or tripple the engine.

If you look at the link I posted it explains it very well.

Chariots actually kinda suck at destroying infantry, unless the infantry freaks out and runs. Too easy to disable the chariot or wait until it passes and pull the riders off/shoot them in the back.

Wheeled horse-drawn vehicles are good at moving stuff. Cavalry is much better at running people down.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

If you look at the link I posted it explains it very well.

Chariots actually kinda suck at destroying infantry, unless the infantry freaks out and runs. Too easy to disable the chariot or wait until it passes and pull the riders off/shoot them in the back.

Wheeled horse-drawn vehicles are good at moving stuff. Cavalry is much better at running people down.

But a chariot stampede is much more imposing than a cavalery one.
And chariots due to their wheels can be much faster on roads than normal cavalery.
They can carry more than one man, so they can have a shield, a spear and a say crossbow on board. Or even a mage hurling fireballs.

And in the age of giants and monsters the sound of chriots coming in with the sound and dust kicked up by a bunch of horses (much more than with cavalery) can scare people. Is that a giant in the distance? Or is that a buch of horses in a chariot filled with people armed to the teeth? Let's not stick around to find out...

 

[deadliver]

But a chariot stampede is much more imposing than a cavalery one.
And chariots due to their wheels can be much faster on roads than normal cavalery.
They can carry more than one man, so they can have a shield, a spear and a say crossbow on board. Or even a mage hurling fireballs.

And in the age of giants and monsters the sound of chriots coming in with the sound and dust kicked up by a bunch of horses (much more than with cavalery) can scare people. Is that a giant in the distance? Or is that a buch of horses in a chariot filled with people armed to the teeth? Let's not stick around to find out...

Now that would be cool. Allowing chariots to carry units such as mages.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Now that would be cool. Allowing chariots to carry units such as mages.

*points at my suggestion to give chariots cargo capacity*

 

[deadliver]

Yeah I am totalling down with trying that out, mages on chariots! After all, IIRC you can only build a limited number of them anyhow?

 

[TitanZ]

Honestly, FFH has chariots completely wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_tactics

Early chariots were used as an archery platform and to transport troops to battle. They went obsolete fairly early, because cavalry is more efficient...although carriages continued to be used for transport, obviously.

War chariots were of dubious use, were slower, and definitely went obsolete once heavy horses and stirrups were available.

If I had control of the works, the basic chariot would require exploration+animal husbandry, power 1 move 3 cargo 1.

War chariot would add bronze working as a requirement, high power low defense, massive penalty to city attack, move 2 cargo 1. Basically an early stack destroyer.

I'd also add an intermediate cavalry unit at warhorses. Weaker than a knight, allows metal weapons, move 3. Call it a lancer or heavy cavalry. Knights were actually a fairly late development, suitable for a path-ending tier 4 unit. Knights should have a higher strength and collateral damage...they were the main battle tanks of their era.

Excellent ideas. The chariot did have its time of relevance, and even dominance, but it was eclipsed by the agility of cavalry and the tactics of the Greek phalanx. In the Ancient Era, the chariot should be at least as powerful as a axeman, though, with less movement than a horseman and severe terrain penalties when operating on anything but roads, plains, and grasslands. Cargo would be sweet and may give it some life later in the game.

Completely agree on the intermediate cavalry unit, as well. There is a long stretch where Horse Archers just don't cut it anymore and Knights are a long way off in the distance.

 

[Quetz]

Why would you use Horse Archers over Chariots?

 

[Sephi]

AI can't use land transports in principle.

The AI isn't so good at using its navy, but in FfH its naval incompetence comes from failure to understand crew promotions and low capacity of the ships. I have seen the AI's land troops on my shores when using Galleons, through.

From what I have seem the AI is quite good at Naval Invasions once they research Astronomy.

 

[WarKirby]

Why would you use Horse Archers over Chariots?

because they're archers. And they have (or should have) more movement. horse archers would generally be for running up, shooting the enemy, and then retreating out of range of a counter attack.


Simple solution, give chariots 3 movement, and +1 terrain movement cost. And all horsemen/knights/horsearchers get 3 movement as well, but no extra movement cost.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I'm going to make the changes I proposed and see how they work. Should be doable in an afternoon.

 

[Honor]

That is very cool of you indeed.

 

[deadliver]

I'm going to make the changes I proposed and see how they work. Should be doable in an afternoon.

Mage ridden chariots FTW!!!

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I'm gonna work on this Saturday...I took a look at the project last night, and I'm going to have to make a lot of decisions with unique units and art defines for heavy cav. All just xml stuff, but will take some time.

I think I'm going to lean towards using unique mounts for the appropriate races where the art is available. Bear riders, boar riders, etc... Might even grab the oddball art floating around that isn't being used yet (griffon rider, giraffe rider, spider rider from WHFB mod).

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Why not simply give the chariots the ability to atach, like grifons do now.
Becouse the entire unit is still 90% a chariot, there is no need for new models, and the mechanism can stay the same as with the grifons.

Weaken chariots but allow them to be used as mounts for units, and we get the real thing. A hero mounting a chariot like in the Trojan War.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Why not simply give the chariots the ability to atach, like grifons do now.
Becouse the entire unit is still 90% a chariot, there is no need for new models, and the mechanism can stay the same as with the grifons.

Weaken chariots but allow them to be used as mounts for units, and we get the real thing. A hero mounting a chariot like in the Trojan War.

Giving chariots cargo capacity 1 does exactly what you suggest. No new art needed, one line of xml.

The art issue is with a previously nonexistent unitclass. I need to make a decision how heavy cav looks for every civ that can build them. Totally doable, but a little time-intensive.

 

[ICanHasName?]

Mage or Archer ridden chariots sounds epic. Maybe it could be done with a spell that the AI really really likes to cast, because AI has enough issues with ocean transports.

Edit: Giraffe riders makes me happy.