War Chariot vs Knight

[PPQ_Purple]

Giving chariots cargo capacity 1 does exactly what you suggest. No new art needed, one line of xml.

The art issue is with a previously nonexistent unitclass. I need to make a decision how heavy cav looks for every civ that can build them. Totally doable, but a little time-intensive.

But there is a beter way. Since the AI newer uses land transports.
The mount/dismount mechanic existing in Pegasus.
This would also allow the chariot to cast any spells or deal damage as the unit riding it, without the need to disembark.

And it is still only a few lines of code.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

But there is a beter way. Since the AI newer uses land transports.
The mount/dismount mechanic existing in Pegasus.
This would also allow the chariot to cast any spells or deal damage as the unit riding it, without the need to disembark.

And it is still only a few lines of code.

The AI is also terrible at upgrading units and casting spells.

I could conceivably do an auto-acquired promotion that gives +2 movement when travelling in a stack with the chariot...but I'm not sure I could easily get it to check how many chariots are available.

Having just done the mounted infantry promotion for the Bannor in FF+, I know exactly how much work the design mechanic used with the pegasus riders takes. Doing it for every conceivable unit that might step into a chariot is a big old "not ever going to happen" for me, sorry.

I could do an effect where the chariot sacrifices itself to promote a unit and increase it's movement and allow that unit to subsequently lose the promo and create a chariot...but the unit art on the promoted units wouldn't change. That seems like a lot more trouble than just providing the cargo space and waiting for the AI to catch up.

I'll probably make the chariots quick and give them 2-3 power. That way the AI will just use them to raid, pillage, and snipe workers. That is OK by me...I'll leave the really cool heroics with chariot-riding mages to the human players.

 

[Lone Wolf]

The AI is also terrible at upgrading units and casting spells.

Well, there's a differences between features that the AI does use, only suboptimally, and features that the AI doesn't use at all.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Well, there's a differences between features that the AI does use, only suboptimally, and features that the AI doesn't use at all.

Sure...

But I'm confident the AI can use a low-power mounted unit to pillage and snipe workers. That is good enough.

 

[Lone Wolf]

But I'm confident the AI can use a low-power mounted unit to pillage and snipe workers. That is good enough.

I'm talking about the "land transport" feature.

 

[Rutee]

I'm talking about the "land transport" feature.

The AI doesn't use direct damage or buff spells, but we still let them build mages.

 

[Lone Wolf]

The AI doesn't use direct damage or buff spells, but we still let them build mages.

I've seen a few Ring of Flames from their Ritualists. And I remember someone complaining that AI Hannah used Malestorm next to his troops, immediately forcing him to declare war on her, not giving him a choice in the matter.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

My point (which I'm apparently not articulating terribly well) is that a power 2 or 3, move 3 mounted unit available at exploration + husbandry will be used extensively and to annoying effect by Bhall. The fact that the AI could also be using those units to carry archers and mages but won't is something I can live with. Having the transport capacity be intuitive/fun/useful for human players is a greater concern.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

My point (which I'm apparently not articulating terribly well) is that a power 2 or 3, move 3 mounted unit available at exploration + husbandry will be used extensively and to annoying effect by Bhall. The fact that the AI could also be using those units to carry archers and mages but won't is something I can live with. Having the transport capacity be intuitive/fun/useful for human players is a greater concern.

You have to remember that most of us will not play a lot against humans and certanly no fully human games.

Having a mechanic the AI would use at least to some degree is a must.

PS. I hate the idea of making the chariots what they are in vanila civ!!!

 

[Vermicious Knid]

You have to remember that most of us will not play a lot against humans and certanly no fully human games.

Having a mechanic the AI would use at least to some degree is a must.

PS. I hate the idea of making the chariots what they are in vanila civ!!!

Yes. My point is that the AI will use a low-power mounted unit.

I understand if that isn't to your taste...but the other possibilities for the mechanic are way too much work for a minimal gain.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Yes. My point is that the AI will use a low-power mounted unit.

I understand if that isn't to your taste...but the other possibilities for the mechanic are way too much work for a minimal gain.

But the game does not need a new low strenth mounted unit.
We already have the horseman for that.

The chariot is a late game tank. And a late game tank it must remain.

If you ask me, I would only give the Knight a bonus vs Chariots and end the discusion.

 

[Valkrionn]

Why MUST the chariot be a late game tank? That is completely, blatantly unrealistic. Chariots were replaced by mounted units wholesale upon the development of the stirrup. Just because that's what they are in the game, does not mean that is what they HAVE to be... Could just as easily make Knights the 'tank'.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

But the game does not need a new low strenth mounted unit.
We already have the horseman for that.

The chariot is a late game tank. And a late game tank it must remain.

If you ask me, I would only give the Knight a bonus vs Chariots and end the discusion.

Chariots are crappy tanks, for a whole host of reasons I will not repeat. They are also a more primitive tech than even the simple horseman...that is just facts.

Any mods I make in this area will be based on how equivalent units worked in the real world. That is clearly not to your taste...and that is totally cool. That being said, my little mod will not be a win for you.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I just hope this does not go into FF+ or worse yet vanila FF.

 

[Valkrionn]

There's a distinct possibility that it will end up in FFPlus. Mostly because I prefer realism over "It's always been this way" or "It's spikey! Gotta be better".

 

[PPQ_Purple]

But... realism is just pointles... flavour should alvays take first place.
Not mentioning that if we want realism, we should dispense with the mages, vampires and the like.

These are not the wooden toys used by the egiptians. These have magicly hasted horses and mithril side plating to name a few.
Imagine chariots as heavy armored war machines towed by many horses and maned by a squad of elite wariors racing at high speeds.

Now do not say to me that it is outdated.

 

[Valkrionn]

The entire concept sounds to me as all Flavour and no reguard to gameplay, balance or god forbit the AI.

But... realism is just pointles... flavour should alvays take first place.
Not mentioning that if we want realism, we should dispense with the mages, vampires and the like.

These are not the wooden toys used by the egiptians. These have magicly hasted horses and mithril side plating to name a few.
Imagine chariots as heavy armored war machines towed by many horses and maned by a squad of elite wariors racing at high speeds.

Now do not say to me that it is outdated.

Honestly, I think realism is important. Flavour is too, and I try to preserve that, but I don't really see the flavour in misrepresenting chariots as something they were not. Plus, I like the idea of a mage riding a chariot into battle... Yes, the AI cannot use it correctly, but it's honestly not too much of a buff for the humans. Besides, if the issue is that there would then be two low-level mounted units, bump the others up a tier.

Edit: Why do you say that they are magic or mithril plated? And yes, even then, Knights would be able to use the same things, and would be more nimble, agile, and generally better able to survive an encounter with foot soldiers. So yes, even then, the chariot would be outdated.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Honestly, I think realism is important. Flavour is too, and I try to preserve that, but I don't really see the flavour in misrepresenting chariots as something they were not. Plus, I like the idea of a mage riding a chariot into battle...

Well for a start chariots look cooler than mounted knights.
Than there is the isue of having to rebalance all the other units.

Yes, the AI cannot use it correctly, but it's honestly not too much of a buff for the humans. Besides, if the issue is that there would then be two low-level mounted units, bump the others up a tier.

True, but it would at least provide some relef for those slow archmages that cant keep up with my heroes. Eather that or allow them to get mobility.

Edit: Why do you say that they are magic or mithril plated?

Becouse they can use mithril weapons. duh

And yes, even then, Knights would be able to use the same things, and would be more nimble, agile, and generally better able to survive an encounter with foot soldiers. So yes, even then, the chariot would be outdated.

A knight is a single man. Yes he is more nimble but he will newer have the ability to cary 3 archers on his single horse or to have a group of people with pikes sticking anything in his way.

Yes, in an enclosed area the knight will be infinitively more useful. But on a open plane or desert, chariots will run over everything and thanks to their greater horsepower they would outrun the knights as well.

Finaly, the chariot crew is protected by the hull of the chariot and has no need for heavy armor to weigh them down, slow them down or make life hard for them. Thus they will be more efective when facing multiple enemies than a lone knight.

 

[Valkrionn]

Well for a start chariots look cooler than mounted knights.
Than there is the isue of having to rebalance all the other units.

True, but it would at least provide some relef for those slow archmages that cant keep up with my heroes. Eather that or allow them to get mobility.

Becouse they can use mithril weapons. duh

A knight is a single man. Yes he is more nimble but he will newer have the ability to cary 3 archers on his single horse or to have a group of people with pikes sticking anything in his way.

Yes, in an enclosed area the knight will be infinitively more useful. But on a open plane or desert, chariots will run over everything and thanks to their greater horsepower they would outrun the knights as well.

Finaly, the chariot crew is protected by the hull of the chariot and has no need for heavy armor to weigh them down, slow them down or make life hard for them. Thus they will be more efective when facing multiple enemies than a lone knight.

Rebalancing is not difficult, Knights can use mithril as well, and I completely disagree about chariots outclassing Knights anywhere. Chariots are unable to turn anywhere near as well as a single horse, and are easily taken down by pikemen. Being able to run over anything is NOT an advantage when enemy units can plant spears in the ground, ripping into your horses chests... Not a good day there. Chariots can only ever really use 2 horses, simply because any more and it's nearly impossible to turn quick enough in battle.Three people, along with the chariot itself, is going to be much heavier than a single knight in armor, even if you distribute the weight between both horses. Also, chariots were made out of the lightest materials possible, so they didn't make very good armor... Or at least, wouldn't by the time they come along in the game.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Rebalancing is not difficult, Knights can use mithril as well, and I completely disagree about chariots outclassing Knights anywhere. Chariots are unable to turn anywhere near as well as a single horse, and are easily taken down by pikemen. Being able to run over anything is NOT an advantage when enemy units can plant spears in the ground, ripping into your horses chests... Not a good day there. Chariots can only ever really use 2 horses, simply because any more and it's nearly impossible to turn quick enough in battle.Three people, along with the chariot itself, is going to be much heavier than a single knight in armor, even if you distribute the weight between both horses. Also, chariots were made out of the lightest materials possible, so they didn't make very good armor... Or at least, wouldn't by the time they come along in the game.

Again... chariots in the game might not be the same as they were in the real world?
Why should they? Fiction is full of examples like this.
For example, a star wars laser rifle most certanly is not a grooved barel gunpowder powered mass driver weapon yet it is still called a rifle.
A ffh paladin has magical powers and FF has priests sumoning giant squids.
I just don't see the point in reworking the entire cavalery line into a less cool alternative for the sake of historical accuracy.

In the end, there is nothing to prove that the concept of chariots used by say ancient egiptians is the same thing as that used by say Dain the Casilvan.