War Elephants

[frob2900]

I'll use them as a general purpose assault unit even with iron. I much prefer them to swordmen. I'll even keep building them as assault units in medieval times, since they can fight knights and crossbowmen much better than maces.

Engineering is the death blow to phants though.

They came in handy a few times when having no access to iron, facing hordes of Monty's knights (yeah, no iron in an OCC w/ Shaka! pity)

 

[oyzar]

with stable they can come right out of the gates with shock which make them even more powerfull. The only real counter to phants are ofc phant themselves. Even formation spearmen doesnt hold up too well to phants especially on the defencive(catapults). Catapults means that there isnt realy a great counter for any unit. As long as you have enough catapults you can do anything...

 

[JackOfClubs]

As futurehermit noted, an unpromoted Spearman is a decent counter to an Elephant. They are both about the same strength and the Spearman costs less so you can get nearly twice as many. (Actually you get 12 spears for the price of 7 jumbos.) When attacking the Spearman has about 50:50 odds and when defending he may get defensive bonuses from terrain and/or city.

But once you start adding promotions the Spearman quickly falls behind.
1. A Combat I Spearman is 4*(1+1+.1) = 8.4 against Elephants but a C1 Elephant is 8*(1+.1) = 8.8.

2. With both at C2 you have 8.8 vs 9.6

2b. But an Elephant with 2 promtions could take Shock instead of C2 and would have 8*(1+.1+.25) = 10.8 against spears.

3. If a spear promotes to Formation that would give 4*(1+1+.45) = 9.8 which is still worse than the C1-Shock Elephant in 2b above and much worse than a C2-Shock = 8*1.45 = 11.6.

I think they are still pretty even when you take the quantities and terrain defenses into account. 7 C2-Shock elephants could probably not take out a city with 12 C2-Formation spears. It would take at least 2 turns and any remaining attackers would be severely damaged. But it would be a bloody fight.

 

[RogueFighter]

After warlords came out, stables were made. Like Oyzar said, and elephant with shock pretty much pwns everything. I expect that elephants will be nerfed with BtS.

 

[cabert]

^^really?
I've yet to see either in a GotM/WotM or a SG that the elephants are overpowered.
What I see in GotM is HA are overpowered

 

[r_rolo1]

I like phants, but they aren't overpowered IMO, because of two things:

Ivory is a scarce resource, and only usable after a somehow late tech ( at least compared with cooper or even iron )

A competent player can spear rush a phant attack ( cost effective measure) or counter it with pikes ( just one tech away form phants (even if it is a expensive one))

@ cabert: HA overpowered? Can you tell me how to use them properly then ?( I almost always skip HBR , so I'm not familiar with the proper usage of HA ( that I normally see as a expensive pillager ( use chariots for that ) )

 

[JimT]

3. If a spear promotes to Formation that would give 4*(1+1+.45) = 9.8 which is still worse than the C1-Shock Elephant in 2b above and much worse than a C2-Shock = 8*1.45 = 11.6.

I think they are still pretty even when you take the quantities and terrain defenses into account. 7 C2-Shock elephants could probably not take out a city with 12 C2-Formation spears. It would take at least 2 turns and any remaining attackers would be severely damaged. But it would be a bloody fight.

Incorrect

C1+Shock Elephant vs C2 Formation Spearman
8*(1+.25-.25) vs 4*(1+1+0.2)
8.8 vs 8.8

and thats assuming combat does not apply to the boosted strength (I don't think it does anyway).
This also ignores fortification bonuses etc. which apply to spearman and every +5% will give +0.2, edging it in the spearmans favour. On like to like terms the spearman will beat an attacking elephant, be on equal terms defending so it's catapults which make the difference. Any hammers saved when building spearmen instead of elephants will go to build extra catapults

So elephants can be matched by formation spearmen but lets face it who has loads of them hanging round. I know the AI doesn't.

Elephants are great as you would expect from an expensive troop requiring a rare resource. The best thing about them is that the counter at the time can only match them. This is no more overpowered than swordmen though.

 

[JimT]

@ cabert: HA overpowered? Can you tell me how to use them properly then ?( I almost always skip HBR , so I'm not familiar with the proper usage of HA ( that I normally see as a expensive pillager ( use chariots for that ) )

They move fast.
They get +5xp (barracks/stables) off the bat

If needed you can divy the stack in to your initial assault (with withdraw) to weaken spearmen and there is rarely more than one or two.

The rest can have assault promos (combat/troop specific) once you have the ability to beat defending units. If not use more withdraw troops.

As your building a constant supply you don't have to worry about defending your territory as you can counter threats quickly.

Meanwhile you can be building barracks and chariots while researching Horseback Riding. Then build stables while researching archery.

The main problem is researching AH realising you don't have horses and then have to start a late axe rush. Therefore it is best to research BW then AH delaying the effectiveness.

Anyway I'm sure Cabert will correct/expand. I do bow to his superior intellect

 

[cabert]

@ cabert: HA overpowered? Can you tell me how to use them properly then ?( I almost always skip HBR , so I'm not familiar with the proper usage of HA ( that I normally see as a expensive pillager ( use chariots for that ) )

no, but I saw super early conquest wins with HA only. Which certainly explains why HA got somewhat nerfed in warlords.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

the trouble with elephants is:

1. ivory; if you have and the ai doesn't, you have a clear upperhand. Especially if you don't play balanced resources or crap like that, which means probably you hogged half of the ivory on the map.
Problem here being that, if the ai has ivory and you don't, you're clearly not screwed, since the ai doesn't rush anything...
2. in theory, spear vs phant is good and cost effective; in practice however:

a. stable gives your phants shock, while spears still have only... combat 1 probably. That not taking in acct. aggresive, xp civics and so on.
b. it's very easy to season your sod with 1-2 axes(can even not be shock...), which will make the spear countering quite ineffective.

All in all, the trouble I think lays in the fact that, more or less, with iron you solve your possible lack of bronze. However, till engineering(very costly tech for it's time, not in the path to liberalism and so on) you don't solve your lack of ivory with anything. Even more, even with pikes, the phant/shock axe combo still performs very well; and countering this combo with pikes is anything but cost effective...

I definitelly like the unit, it's a nice thing inbetween the boring rock-paper-scissor combo of units which make up most of the game, however, I think ivory should be distributed more or less like iron.

 

[ungy]

Everyone talks about giving the elephants shock as the second promo. I don't get it.

The AI builds lots of spears and prioritizes eng so often has pike earlier than the player. Elephant is expensive and will be an underdog to undamaged LB or spear fortified in city. To me elephants are a very useful unit but used purely to counter mounted units and to extend their lifetime and counter knights they need the formation promo. That means combat 2 and no shock.
Your SOD should mostly use cats to attack cities, and cleanup with sword/mace/axe (or elephant). For cleanup of damaged units promo doesn't matter. But the formation promo is key to keep the unit useful in the next era.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

the ai usually builds 1 spear/city; however, in a std. war(at least on higher lvls, since no matter what, you'll be the underdog in power), you declare, sit there, wait for his sod or his attempt of sod to attack(which usually has 1 spear), you sacrifice 1 elephant against it(or not, with shock, since his sod spear ain't fortified), and then you have a field day with the rest of his invading army since it'll usually be some has(trivial), swords/axes(easy), catas(easy), maceman(rather easy - again with shock), xbows(easy).

after you killed 1-2 invading "armies", you can then go in and mow the lawn in peace; thankfully, to be not totally overpowered, they don't get cr promotion(like all mounted units). But nevertheless, they're useful in assaults too, after the usual suiciding catas.

And regarding pikes - the place where they shine is exactly before pikes; that war after you got construction. And they mean more or less you can crush any invading army, without catas. And they mean that even if you're behind in tech, you can still counter relatively easy his xbows/maces(since ai researches pikes way later then machinery/cs). And when you don't have money to promote your axes when you finally got maces, the phant still does decently in a city attack(though hardly it's strong point).

Or that you can defend a city with ease, combined with 1 axe. Basically, again, until pikes(which come ~900 or so on immortal - engineering being usually last tech the ai researches from the medieval ones, at most the one before guilds), beside sieging(where you still need the catas) there's nothing that can stand against your shock promoted phant(neither maces, nor xbows, which are in theory next era units).

 

[ungy]

the ai usually builds 1 spear/city; however, in a std. war(at least on higher lvls, since no matter what, you'll be the underdog in power), you declare, sit there, wait for his sod or his attempt of sod to attack(which usually has 1 spear), you sacrifice 1 elephant against it(or not, with shock, since his sod spear ain't fortified), and then you have a field day with the rest of his invading army
after you killed 1-2 invading "armies", you can then go in and mow the lawn in peace; thankfully, to be not totally overpowered, they don't get cr promotion(like all mounted units).

You've sold me on giving that a try. I've been coming for them in this era war (would wait for them in the next). I've found the AI tends to rarely get an effective SOD together, and when it does it will often make some pretty bad attacks against cities and come unglued.
I've been struggling with immortal and this might be part of it.
It still seems like you want a mix of shock and combat 2 jumbos--only against the mace do you need the shock.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

It still seems like you want a mix of shock and combat 2 jumbos--only against the mace do you need the shock

usually combinin' them 2/1 2* vs */shock; or 3/2.

And that brings us to the other issue: you usually have open borders. You recon what the opponent has and build troops accordingly(not that it'd matter that much, since you usually know a bunch of longbows would be fielded when playing against the ai). However, despite open borders agreement being mutual, and the ai noticing your herd of phants, he cba to build more spears or to prioritize abit more engineering.

Also, when he has ivory, except for that random phant that's sneakin' in his build queue... it's still that std. army...

All in all, I'd agree phants are not out of boundries in a multiplayer considering their cost; however, given the way the ai builds it's army, they're definitelly overpowered in single player.

 

[Dirk1302]

Phants extend the oppurtunity window for a classical war. A normal stack of axe,sword/spear/catas is extremely vulnerable to attacks once the Ai's get macemen or even crossbows. With Phants the Ai really needs grens or rifles to do real damage to a stack.

 

[Vulcans]

elephants are also great as they can be upgrated to cavalry. your army of elephants instantly beomces a ready army of upgraded cavalry as soon as you get MT

 

[cabert]

elephants are also great as they can be upgrated to cavalry. your army of elephants instantly beomces a ready army of upgraded cavalry as soon as you get MT

you still need to pay for this = you need money.

 

[Dirk1302]

True but i find Horse archers a bit of a waste of time (also have to research HB) so unless i plan for Cavs (more of a gren/cannon man myself) this way i usually only have some chariots to upgrade. If i have ivory i usually build between 5-15 phants and it's indeed nice that they can be upgraded to cavs.

 

[cabert]

True but i find Horse archers a bit of a waste of time (also have to research HB) so unless i plan for Cavs (more of a gren/cannon man myself) this way i usually only have some chariots to upgrade. If i have ivory i usually build between 5-15 phants and it's indeed nice that they can be upgraded to cavs.

you need HBR to build cavalries, so you won't be able to upgrade elephants to cavalries without it

 

[Dirk1302]

Yes but i can research HBR in one turn at that moment so no big deal then. Main resaon i don't build harchers is that at the moment they're useful HBR costs some 10 turns to research.