War Elephants

[Antilogic]

I've avoided HBR unless I have horses early on without great access to copper or iron. Also, if you are Hannibal, the Numidians rock. But that's getting a little too off-topic.

 

[KMadCandy]

quechua rush works at any level.

it kinda does. but actually it works better at the levels where the AI starts with archers, silly . i think that's monarch, might be prince. at noble and below they start with warriors and don't know archery, so the quechua bonus is wasted for approximately a bazillion years since the AI researches sooooooooooooo slooooooooooowly. they also take an estimated eighty trillion years to expand. *giggle*

i suppose i might perhaps be exaggerating a bit.

 

[cabert]

it kinda does. but actually it works better at the levels where the AI starts with archers, silly . i think that's monarch, might be prince. at noble and below they start with warriors and don't know archery, so the quechua bonus is wasted for approximately a bazillion years since the AI researches sooooooooooooo slooooooooooowly. they also take an estimated eighty trillion years to expand. *giggle*

i suppose i might perhaps be exaggerating a bit.

Ok, right.
I just never play below prince, and always face archers .

 

[Ecofarm]

Isabel is the only AI that I've seen build a huge stack of elephants. Anyone else noticed this?

 

[cabert]

Isabel is the only AI that I've seen build a huge stack of elephants. Anyone else noticed this?

I guess it's just that she was lacking metals and horses.
I had to face large numbers of elephants from various empires (incas, french, chinese, ...). They don't live long if you send 1 or 2 barrage cats on the stack .

 

[Vulcans]

it kinda does. but actually it works better at the levels where the AI starts with archers, silly . i think that's monarch, might be prince. at noble and below they start with warriors and don't know archery, so the quechua bonus is wasted for approximately a bazillion years since the AI researches sooooooooooooo slooooooooooowly. they also take an estimated eighty trillion years to expand. *giggle*

i suppose i might perhaps be exaggerating a bit.

sounds like you need to go up a level if the AI is researching too slowly. on empror they don't research too slowly.

 

[JimT]

Don't worry she does, Hence 1,800 posts.

 

[cabert]

it kinda does. but actually it works better at the levels where the AI starts with archers, silly . i think that's monarch, might be prince. at noble and below they start with warriors and don't know archery, so the quechua bonus is wasted for approximately a bazillion years since the AI researches sooooooooooooo slooooooooooowly. they also take an estimated eighty trillion years to expand. *giggle*

i suppose i might perhaps be exaggerating a bit.

sounds like you need to go up a level if the AI is researching too slowly. on empror they don't research too slowly.

Don't worry she does, Hence 1,800 posts.

Kmad doesn't need me to defend her, but since she's a quattromaster, it means she won on every level at least once...

 

[KMadCandy]

Isabel is the only AI that I've seen build a huge stack of elephants. Anyone else noticed this?

i think hannibal is a big fat cheater. every time i ever meet him, he has ivory. he must carry it around in his pocket, and put it on the terrain himself! i'm always facing elephants when he's around. brennus too, and ragnar, but i kinda get those 3 confused. hannibal for sure.

it kinda does. but actually it works better at the levels where the AI starts with archers, silly . i think that's monarch, might be prince. at noble and below they start with warriors and don't know archery, so the quechua bonus is wasted for approximately a bazillion years since the AI researches sooooooooooooo slooooooooooowly. they also take an estimated eighty trillion years to expand. *giggle*

i suppose i might perhaps be exaggerating a bit.

sounds like you need to go up a level if the AI is researching too slowly. on empror they don't research too slowly.

the entire point of my post was that things vary by the difficulty level! i was saying that the quechua bonus vs. archers is wasted on the levels where the AI doesn't start with archers and will not get them for many years.

that has nothing at all to do with the difficulty level i use when i play the game. i thank you for your concern, but i advise that in the future you read things before you quote them and spout off generic advice to the poster.

oh what the heck, i will sort of defend myself, i found an old post i kind of remembered that made me giggle. this was in a thread where people seemed to always get rankings of either augustus or dan quayle at the end of the game:

i've lost and gotten ranked as "ethelred the unready" which i think is 2 above dan quayle . it's always when playing deity OCC, so i don't know if you just get that automatically if you lose on deity, or if it thinks i'm particularly skilled at losing, but it makes me giggle. and at least i'm not dan q.

no, not automatically. i just did a test game, worldbuildered a barb right next to my city on turn 1 on deity, i was dan quayle. maybe you have to last a little while.

on monarch when i lose i get dan quayle. it's true, i'm multi-talented. i can lose civ4 on a variety of levels .

so see? i play, and sometimes lose, on more than one level, i even admitted it last month! *gigglefest*

 

[badger_md]

I'm resurecting this dinosaur of a post becuase it was out before BtS came along. Not that the elephant was changed at all, but I've found that I have no reason NOT to make a lot of elephants if I have access to ivory. At the monarch level, the AI has no defense for elephants/catapults. It simply cannot coordinate the production of an adequate number of spearmen to match me when I spam elephants. To counter an elephant/cata army, you would need spearmen/cata army or spear/ele/cata army. The AI, at least at the monarch level, is not capable of putting together an appropriate defense.

So, the question is, are elephants/catas overpowered at the monarch level in your collective experiences? I'm not talking about multiplayer for purposes of this discussion.

Should I simply start playing at a higher level? Would that make it more challenging to use elephants? I just can't see ignoring elephants/catas as they are a no-brainer in the decision tree. I kind of like monarch level because you can build pretty much any wonder you really want to (I have a weakness for the shiny things...) but I would be willing to try higher levels if others have found the AI to be more comptetent in defense at higher levels.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Elephant was changed to requiring horseback riding as well as construction in BtS. They un-nerfed horse archers though from warlords (removed the city attack penalty) and added flank attack vs. catapults so that makes HBR much better anyway.

Wellies rock anyway. I won my first Emperor game on warlords with praets, cats and wellies.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I agree with FH and scooter.
The elephant isn't overpowered, simply because it costs so much.
It's not a cost effective unit, you cannot mass elephants easily.

I'm in this school of thought too. An elephant vs a spear, both unpromoted, is 50/50. Spears are much cheaper than elephants. Also, spears DO get defensive bonuses, and even the 25% fortification bonus will tip the battle in their favor (assuming equal promos). Hills, forests, cities, anything puts them in front of elephants despite their lower cost.

What I wouldn't want to do, however, is ATTACK an elephant heavy opponent in the classical ages, because attacking spears will definitely encounter axes and other nonsense, and overpowering the elephants with anything else would be impractical. Unless, of course, we're talking city raider praets. Let's not get into that though, everyone knows how dominant those can be.

Of course one way to counter elephants is to get them yourself. Not very easy in MP probably, but depending on the resource location you can certainly abuse it in SP. Camp there, pillage the resource out, pick a different target, quickly take their one elephant city, whatever. The AI has trouble with tactical planning along those lines.

 

[madscientist]

In BTS Those Jumbos have several disadvantages

1) Speed, compared with HAs or knights.
2) Cost, discussed above.
3) They require HBR and construction.

They are still very powerful but not as OVERPOWERED. One other item, Crussairs (military tradition + gunpowder) are even money against jumbos compared with Vanilla/warlords Cavalry (same techs) where it was easier to counter them.

Also the need for two resources allows an AI the chance to get maces or muskets to counter them, although not so often on Monarch.


A final note:

In warlords/Vanilla only Roman Prats held up to Jumbos. In BTS The Byzantine UU and HRE UU both work well against Jumbos and are not really succeptible to any countering unit.

 

[Artichoker]

Are these beasts overpowered? I recently played a Fractal/Warlord game, with Inca, and I had elephants in my capital's fat cross. I Quecha rushed Ragnar in 1500 BC, destroying his one city, and then Elephant/Axemen/Quecha rushed Tokugawa at ~100AD (we three shared an island) and destroyed him without losing an elephant, and only losing one axeman (stray chariot).

Are they overpowered? It seems that every game I get elephants, I end up rushing my opponents with them, destroying their cities with ease, with or without catapults. (and the +50% against mounted units makes them even more attractive)
Also, the only general counter at this point is the Spearman, who has a +100% counter against mounted units, but has 4 strength. This puts him at equal terms at least, since elephants do not get terrain bonuses. But, a Combat I/Smash elephant (+10 Str, +25 vs Melee) can trounce even enemy spearmen!

Has anyone else noticed this? Or even USE elephants, since catapults are "more attractive"?

Elephants are not overpowered for a few reasons:

1) They don't get access to CR promotions, just like other types of cavalry.

So, it's a choice between an 8-Strength Elephant that can't get CR promotions vs. a 6-Strength Swordsman that can get them.

2) They can be countered by Spearmen or Pikemen (depending on the tech level of the opponent).

This means their lifespan is rather short, when you consider how effective the Pikemen are.


3) They are not very far ahead of Macemen.

Once you get Macemen, it's a choice between a CR-enabled unit that gets a 50% bonus vs. melee units, or a CR-disabled unit that gets a 50% bonus vs. mounted units that's slightly cheaper. In almost all cases, I'd chose the Macemen.

 

[UncleJJ]

War elephants are stronger than most here seem to be giving them credit for. In BtS they should be built with a stables and that means they get 2 promotions to a basic spearman's one. I find they run over any troops until pikemen and even there they can take them out with a bit of catapult support or by that time your own trebuchet support. Enemy macemen with CR promotions are vulnerable to Combat 2 and Combat + Shock ellies.

Who needs to worry about getting macemen when you have such a powerful stack defender / attacker? I find that they are strong enough to safely go for Liberalism and get drafted muskets effectively skipping the age of the maceman. With support from catapults and swordsmen you can still make war taking weak cities and pillaging with impunity in the age of longbows. Only the best defenders (Protective with several CG promotions) or LB in a city on a hill are too tough. As soon a trebuchets are available even those fall although of course by that time you'll have access to CR maces as well.

As to them being too slow, I don't think that's true. They aren't really mounted troops, I regard them as super heavy infantry and they just move with the main SoD along with the catapults and CR swords and Shock axes and other troops needed for serious warfare in the middle ages. Great troops and I'm always glad to have them on my side even if only to counter the ones used by the enemy. They're not overpowered but they are very strong and not far from that. They last a long time, with adequate support, and I often have a few of them around in the age of rifles and cavalry as second line troops used to finish off the tail enders battered by cannons. I take great pleasure in upgrading my faithful ellies to helicopter gunships

 

[madscientist]

War elephants are stronger than most here seem to be giving them credit for. In BtS they should be built with a stables and that means they get 2 promotions to a basic spearman's one. I find they run over any troops until pikemen and even there they can take them out with a bit of catapult support or by that time your own trebuchet support. Enemy macemen with CR promotions are vulnerable to Combat 2 and Combat + Shock ellies.

Who needs to worry about getting macemen when you have such a powerful stack defender / attacker? I find that they are strong enough to safely go for Liberalism and get drafted muskets effectively skipping the age of the maceman. With support from catapults and swordsmen you can still make war taking weak cities and pillaging with impunity in the age of longbows. Only the best defenders (Protective with several CG promotions) or LB in a city on a hill are too tough. As soon a trebuchets are available even those fall although of course by that time you'll have access to CR maces as well.

As to them being too slow, I don't think that's true. They aren't really mounted troops, I regard them as super heavy infantry and they just move with the main SoD along with the catapults and CR swords and Shock axes and other troops needed for serious warfare in the middle ages. Great troops and I'm always glad to have them on my side even if only to counter the ones used by the enemy. They're not overpowered but they are very strong and not far from that. They last a long time, with adequate support, and I often have a few of them around in the age of rifles and cavalry as second line troops used to finish off the tail enders battered by cannons. I take great pleasure in upgrading my faithful ellies to helicopter gunships

I generally agree with you except for the mobility part. They are as slow as swords/maces without the benefit of CR promotion, thus city assault is not easy. Since they are slow they are open to catapult attacks. Also the price, yes shock promoted Jumbos will defeat the first spear but not the second. Don't get me wrong, they are a stronge unit, but I would not consider them overpowered.

 

[Artichoker]

With Stables, I agree, that moves them up a notch. However, it takes an extra tech (Horseback Riding) if you want to build a Stable. That's not always going to be available, at least during the window of time before Macemen come around.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

In BtS, you need HBR anyway...

 

[Perugia]

And regarding pikes - the place where they shine is exactly before pikes; that war after you got construction. And they mean more or less you can crush any invading army, without catas. And they mean that even if you're behind in tech, you can still counter relatively easy his xbows/maces(since ai researches pikes way later then machinery/cs). And when you don't have money to promote your axes when you finally got maces, the phant still does decently in a city attack(though hardly it's strong point). .

When you are behind in tech Elephants are a great counter to longbows, crossbows and maces. They are also an effective counter to musketmen and will be the only unit you have than can take the pinch promo before you get your own gunpowder units.
Thus you can continue to attack or defend against an AI that fields musketmen if you have elephants (and they are cheaper than musketmen). Your CRIII maces with siege will defeat musketmen defending cities and your pinch promoted elephants can defend your SoD as it approaches across flat ground and pick of any musketmen that try to cross the border and pillage your land. Your only real worry is when the AI has pikemen that are protected against melee units but you can usually just play a waiting game and let the AI attack you.

 

[UncleJJ]

Unfortunately, it doesn't quite work like that, in BtS at least. The Pinch promotion is only available to elephants once you have Gunpowder yourself in BtS and also in the other versions, IIRC. So if your elephants can have Pinch you can build your own muskets. Also, all mounted troops can get the Pinch promotion, even chariots and HAs although they aren't strong enough to do much at that stage of the game But I find Pinch promoted knights to be very strong against muskets.

However, I agree with you that war elephants make great stack defenders for your CR troops. They are also good as city defenders when used for counter attacking against the maces and muskets in an enemy SoD. I don't find pike to be a big problem ascatapults in my SoD will soften them with collateral and a damaged pike will usually be beaten by an elephant. They are the same cost anyway so it's a fair trade of hammers. The elephants are themselves defended against a counter attacking pike by macemen (even the CR ones) and a Shock promoted maceman is nearly unbeatable. Elephants work really well with other stack defenders and attackers and are a very useful and cost effective troop over a long period of time. Whoever it was who said they are a short lived troop type could not be more wrong, I find them to be among the longest lived of all my troops.