War Elephants

[Jerrymander]

Are these beasts overpowered? I recently played a Fractal/Warlord game, with Inca, and I had elephants in my capital's fat cross. I Quecha rushed Ragnar in 1500 BC, destroying his one city, and then Elephant/Axemen/Quecha rushed Tokugawa at ~100AD (we three shared an island) and destroyed him without losing an elephant, and only losing one axeman (stray chariot).

Are they overpowered? It seems that every game I get elephants, I end up rushing my opponents with them, destroying their cities with ease, with or without catapults. (and the +50% against mounted units makes them even more attractive)
Also, the only general counter at this point is the Spearman, who has a +100% counter against mounted units, but has 4 strength. This puts him at equal terms at least, since elephants do not get terrain bonuses. But, a Combat I/Smash elephant (+10 Str, +25 vs Melee) can trounce even enemy spearmen!

Has anyone else noticed this? Or even USE elephants, since catapults are "more attractive"?

 

[futurehermit]

On a strength-for-its-era ratio, I don't believe there are many stronger units than the elephant. Is it overpowered? My definition of overpowered is when a unit's counter doesn't do well enough against it. What is the elephant's counter?

This is where it's tricky. You could say spears, but they are an archaic unit whereas the elephant is a classical unit. So, let's say you use spears. They do a cost-effective job of countering them imo, but you need quite a few of them because 1-on-1 spears can and often do lose vs. elephants. I'm not a math-expert but it's something like 4*100% for spears vs. 8 for elephants which is roughly equal in my books. The case is slightly better for spears once they get formation, which is what I always try and promote my spears to reach.

So, spears vs. elephants: Not so hot, but cost-effective, so therefore elephants not overpowered.

You could also say elephants are countered by pikes. Pikes do great against elephants and win clearly. So again, elephants not overpowered. But of course pikes are a medieval unit so you would expect it to excel against a classical unit.

What makes elephants so freakin' great is 1) Timing. You can get them long before any ai gets engineering and therefor when they have to rely on spears (or their own elephants). They then have to get a lot of spears and the ai tends not to do this. It is also harder for them to do so if you have denied them access to metal (pillaging, etc.). And 2) Their synergy with catapults. Horse archers are the counter for catapults during the classical era and elephants beat harchers bad. Catapults rule all since they do collateral dmg, can retreat, and do well against infantry and regular archers. Elephants come with the same tech, so they're the natural support unit.

Elephants + catapults are thus near-invincible during their era. If you have a couple shock axes added in, there's not much that is gonna hurt you. Only a similar army will have any chance.

So, yeah, definitely use them, but I wouldn't say they're op. If you don't have your own elephants, say in multiplayer, you would want lots of spears as well as your own catapults. Catapults to soften up the stack and then spears to mop up.

 

[covok48]

I find the 1 movement for Elephants the only hampering quality they have. It takes them & catapults a long time to approach ememy cities so cities have time to boost their garrisons and bring up support units.

 

[kniteowl]

When you compare the Elephant to the Prat, same strenght but Prat can Promote CR, so yeah compared to the Prat, they are quite balanced, not to mention they cost more (60H > 45H), Ivory is rarer then Iron and they come at a later Tech. You generally research IW before construction.

Also remember that they can be counter by the Greek UU, The Phalanx that has 5str so against an elephant, that's 10 vs 8.

 

[Antilogic]

Ignoring the UU counters (because everybody can get elephants, but only one civ can get phalanxes), I think the elephants are balanced because they do not receive terrain defense bonuses, and thus are quite vulnerable to spearmen if they have combat promotions. Also, if your spearmen are fortified on hills, say, that gives them a leg up. Not to mention they are quite cheap.

They are a fantastic unit, to say the least, and I hate fighting them when the AI has them in great numbers. I actually used a Great General on a spearman once just to get a Combat IV/Formation/Leadership spearman so he could beat up elephants that were attacking me.

I'm not going to say they are overpowered. But they are quite powerful, good bang for the buck.

 

[futurehermit]

I find the 1 movement for Elephants the only hampering quality they have. It takes them & catapults a long time to approach ememy cities so cities have time to boost their garrisons and bring up support units.

That's why you sack the biggest/most important/military cities first

 

[Jerrymander]

I ran into serious trouble later in the map.
I declared on Shaka. Impis have a +100% for mounted units as well. They only have 4 strength, but they have Combat I and Mobility from the start.

I was screwed. After 2000 years, the elephants got outdated. Enter macemen.

So, to counter elephants, you have to either Barracks/Theocracy/Vassalge Spearmen, race to Engineering, or hope to God you're Greek or Zulu.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

The trouble with getting a spear to counter an elephant effectively is getting to formation requires Combat II, so unless you're aggressive or to a lesser extent Charismatic isn't as easy as getting an elephant to Shock (requires combat 1)

Elephants are very good against Knights too.

But I don't think they're overpowered as I never seem to get them early enough in most games to use them, unless they're in my capital's fat-cross. And they're expensive to trade for.

 

[martin031]

I was just playing a game as Mehmed,. Had gold mines in my first two cities, so made it to maths pretty quick. Then construction. I was teching along pretty quick. I missed the Oracle by only a few turns, but if I had built it, I think I would have taken construction and had an early jump on my nearest rivals. I think I am going to try it again, this time trying to either time a GS to pop Maths, take construction with oracle and go on a rampage. Conditons have to be just right though.

 

[Hold The Onion]

I think elephants are great because they're rare, expensive, and worth the investment. I think there needs to be units that strike fear into the hearts of enemies. I declared on Napo yesterday as soon as he had math so I could pillage his ivory before he got construction. Then Mansa culture stole my ivory and i kinda knew how Napo felt. Worst part about Mansa was that my friend was already having quite a time taking skirmishers on 3 hill cities (we were playing hot seat) and all of a sudden Mansa pops a couple elephants. I had to make peace and go help him at that point.

 

[scooter]

They're not overpowered, mainly because you also have to remember they're quite expensive. Spearmen and axes are 35, swordsman are 40, and elephants are a whopping 60... If elephants were around 40 shields, then yeah they'd definitely be overpowered, but other than that they're fine IMO.

 

[futurehermit]

They're not overpowered, mainly because you also have to remember they're quite expensive. Spearmen and axes are 35, swordsman are 40, and elephants are a whopping 60... If elephants were around 40 shields, then yeah they'd definitely be overpowered, but other than that they're fine IMO.

and two spears definitely counter an elephant. but not after they've been softened up by some collateral-dmg catapults

 

[slowcar]

main reason for elephants being so strong is that AI is too dumb to counter them.

in MP they are very strong if used as a pillage party together with a shock axe. the invest-to-kill ratio is very high for the enemy and he needs quite some spears+x to block them.
as a cover to cats they are very useful, but as stacks grow bigger its only a function over the amount of cats in the end (and who attacks first of course).

i think they are pretty fine the way they are - unless my opponent has them

 

[cabert]

I agree with FH and scooter.
The elephant isn't overpowered, simply because it costs so much.
It's not a cost effective unit, you cannot mass elephants easily.

 

[AThousandYoung]

It's easy to rush an enemy with any number of units. Elephants aren't any different than Axes, Swords, Horse Archers (vanilla), whatever you can get early.

 

[cabert]

It's easy to rush an enemy with any number of units. Elephants aren't any different than Axes, Swords, Horse Archers (vanilla), whatever you can get early.

you can pop rush 2 axes for 2 pop most of the time.
You cannot pop rush elephants as easily...

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Siege units are the only overpowered non-UUs.

I Quecha rushed Ragnar in 1500 BC, destroying his one city

???

You probably need to play at a higher difficulty.

 

[cabert]

You probably need to play at a higher difficulty.

quechua rush works at any level.

 

[madscientist]

I have found war elephants a great unit to use within limits and they can be defensed well without engineering. Attacking they are a great followup stack (with catapults and axemen) to an earlier chariot/horse archer assault, but they are SLOW. You can defense fairly well with properly promoted spearmen and properly placed catapults. Horse archers/chariots are very productive against them because they can cut your own road they need to travel well before they arrive, leaving roads from your cities to the front to transport catapults. Also I believe you can produce 2-3 spear units for the same # of hammers your foe uses to make an elephant unit so you can win a war of attrition, or you can make horse units a bit faster. Finally, horse archers can get behind the elephants and counter attack pretty fast forcing the AI to reconsider the attack. Now, if the AI is so far ahead in production that he has an inexhaustable supply of elephants your toast anyway.

 

[Eshnunna]

Phants aren't overpowered, but a real pain in the ass when used by the AI.

They came in handy a few times when having no access to iron, facing hordes of Monty's knights (yeah, no iron in an OCC w/ Shaka! pity)