Warhammer Fantasy Mod 2.0

[SirVile]

Just some quick thoughts...

1. Would taking the Unit Ability of Spells "Cruise Missiles" off and changing their class to "Air" change them much? Would this then allow for them to be based on "Airfields" (aka Wizard Towers)? If that was the case, I wonder how the AI would deal with only allowing spell casters to build these towers...

2. Any thoughts on "Hidden Nationality", "Invisibility", "Detect Invisibility" or "Radar" for Spys and Ninja etc (Dragons or casters with Detect Invisibility" would also make sense). Agents have the "Hidden Nationality" ability shouldn't the other "sneaky" units? Invisibility could be used to represent "spirit" units (like Shades) that casters or powerful creatures (Dragons or Daemons) could detect. This all could add an interesting espionage/counter espionage aspect to the Mod...

3. There seem to be some "Zone of Control" inconsistancies and I'm unsure as to what your trying to represent with it in your mod ED. Should the various Daemons, Marksman, Vampires, Dragons have the "Zone of Control" flags set (Especially Dragons)? Seems that other less powerful units have it set (ie low level casters like Magicians or Arquebusier).

4. Since spell casters can no longer carry spells, should they be given some range with their bombard? I'd agree that there should be some differece between how casters and seige engines work though. Maybe a combination of "Rate of Fire" and "Bombard Strength" could do this. For example, you could make most seige engines slow but long range and powerful and casters quick, short range and less powerful (or any other combination that made sense to you).

5. Since spells can no longer be Disbanded for shields, should the "Req support" flag be un-checked? If I'm at peace for a long time, those Wizards' Guilds start to become expensive...

6. I don't check into other mods, but has anyone messed with Sea units that have the "Army" Unit ability set? Seems that if it was possible, fleet battles could be cool...

7. I've raised this one before, but that was when casters were able to carry spells so I'll re-ask. How about "Artifact" units which can carry spells but have the "Require Escort" unit ability set? Seems that Spells have very much become a defensive type of unit now that they can't be really moved about much...

8. For mine, there are still a few redundant units although v2.x is much better than v1.x. I've mainly been playing Lahmian and noticed the Blood Knights seem a bit of a waste. If they were 3 move, even iff a bit weaker, then they would have a decent role in my forces. As it is, I focus on getting Lahmian Vampires which, although they have slightly weaker attack and defense, make up for it with Blitz and extra HPs (in terms of net offensive and defensive capabilities).

9. I'm not real sure how it's supposed to work, but for Monarchy the "Propaganda Modifier vs." Depotism doesn't seem right. I think the bonuses are mixed around between vs. Depotism and vs. Monarchy

10. Do the different Governments seem a little "flat" to anyone else? As I've said, I like playing Lahmian and switching to "Undead State" just doesn't seem worth it especially since it comes at a point in the game where I have lots of things to keep my population happy (to mitigate War Weariness), have good gold potential and larger cities. I think I've heard ED say before for v1.x that the "Evil" governments have an advantage at the begining of the game because of the "Forced Labour" Hurry Production option means less with small starting cities. By the time we Undead folk get the option to switch to Undead State, it seems a foolish choice to me.

I think 10 questions is enough for now. Hopefully I'll stir up those creative juices ED.

 

[DemonMaster]

I agree to the new spell system that you cant disband them and they cost maintaince. When I played Khemri, the spells that I got during peace time bleed me dry, so I had to make war to get rid of them, because if you are an undead state you have so low city support so the few troops you can have must be those units that do cost (the free ones: skeletons) are not good enough in that era (hopefully someone makes a better undead units).

The problem with the undeads are the lacking of units that are usable, and if you change to undead state (a good question, why) you need large cities so you at least have some city support to talk about, but to build the only free "good?" unit == Skeleton Minion, reduces the population by one so you cant mass produce them, because thats at the end lowers your economy and reduces the city support (and thats not good for your economy either). I think we have a Moment 22 here. Suggestions anybody??????

I tested Eds Wizard Tower he mentions and it works (I let the worker be able to build it), I don't know if the AI use this but it was quite good to be able to build them, so your spells can reach (especially if undead, see above).

 

[SirVile]

I think I just found a bug with the Civpedia entery for Iron. Firstly, it doesn't show in the Civpedia entry for "Smithing". Then, if you drill down to it via the Civpedia icon, you get a "Hypertext" error which keeps comin up till you end turn and then it "hangs" the game (task manager/end task to break ou of Civ).

Before someone askes, yes I'm on v1.22 of Conquests.

 

[SirVile]

Another thought about spells....They can be "lauched" from outside of most units LOS. Since they don't carry flags or wear uniforms, should they also have the "Hide Nationality" Unit Ability?

Also on my point 2, LOTs of units can "Detect Invisibility" but no units have "Invisibility". This looks like a feature just begging to be included.

 

[Dragonlord]

I think I just found a bug with the Civpedia entery for Iron. Firstly, it doesn't show in the Civpedia entry for "Smithing". Then, if you drill down to it via the Civpedia icon, you get a "Hypertext" error which keeps comin up till you end turn and then it "hangs" the game (task manager/end task to break ou of Civ).

Before someone askes, yes I'm on v1.22 of Conquests.

The hypertext error message is a general civ 'bug' which occurs whenever too many units are listed in the civilopedia entry; it doesn't usually hang the game though, you just klick on OK for the required number of times (a pain in the butt, I agree) and then you can play on. Are you sure it really hung the game? Probably you would just have had to klick OK a few more times.

 

[Dragonlord]

Another thought about spells....They can be "lauched" from outside of most units LOS. Since they don't carry flags or wear uniforms, should they also have the "Hide Nationality" Unit Ability?

Also on my point 2, LOTs of units can "Detect Invisibility" but no units have "Invisibility". This looks like a feature just begging to be included.

Invisibility isn't really much use in Civ3 when playing against the AI - the AI always knows where they are, and if they also have 'hidden nationality' they get targetted by EVERYONE - you can watch the AIs converging on those allegedly invisible units from all sides....

 

[Dragonlord]

I tested Eds Wizard Tower he mentions and it works (I let the worker be able to build it), I don't know if the AI use this but it was quite good to be able to build them, so your spells can reach (especially if undead, see above).

ED, I'd love the wizard tower feature as well - it would be great if you could include that in a patch.

 

[chocmushroom]

Just some quick thoughts...

10. Do the different Governments seem a little "flat" to anyone else? As I've said, I like playing Lahmian and switching to "Undead State" just doesn't seem worth it especially since it comes at a point in the game where I have lots of things to keep my population happy (to mitigate War Weariness), have good gold potential and larger cities. I think I've heard ED say before for v1.x that the "Evil" governments have an advantage at the begining of the game because of the "Forced Labour" Hurry Production option means less with small starting cities. By the time we Undead folk get the option to switch to Undead State, it seems a foolish choice to me.

ED.

That is a problem that i found. When i changed to undead state, I was killed just because of the amount of money it was costing me each turn. I worked out that I was just about breaking even with all my workers, if you added in my Liches and Death Galleys it was over 150gold/turn
It was also a catch 22 situation, without the Galleys I could not transport the army, and without the Liches I could not defend them, but with them I could not survivie the cost in gold.
But, maybe it will just mean i'll have to find a different way of playing them so that i can get them to work.
But, the spells DO KILL YOU, but being at war does not hurt undead state, so just fight

 

[Mr. Do]

With spells, isn't it just possible for you to launch it at an empty square, or in the sea to get rid of them?

I'm amazed you thought to make 10 questions for ED, SirVile, yet you didn't read the readme (So called because you're meant to read it!) that he included with the mod.

The main bonus of the undead state is being able to build the spell of awakening, which will give you a massive undead army over time.

 

[DemonMaster]

First of you cant attack with spells/airplanes/cruise missiles unless you have a target which can be an enemy unit or road etc.

The skeleton warriors that the spell of awakening creates are a first era unit, even worse than that (Skeleton Warrior 5.3.1 - Norm 6.4.1). Ok you got a lot of them, and you need them. When you have nothing that can take down the trolls then you have to attack the trolls (in which the goblins treat as the common thing to build, they build alot of them - Troll 10.5.1 with hit point bonus) with ALOT of skeleton warriors. In my wars with the goblins I had stacks with 30-90 skeletons warriors in each (I played on a huge map). Those stacks with only 30 skeleton warriors are just there to be destroyed (they never reach anything to attack before the stack is gone). The 90 stacks can manage to reach a city and sometimes even take it. The only bonus with them is that they are many, it takes some time to kill them all.

All the other units of Khemri are not particularly good offensively either (good as defenders) but they cost, in which we have already discussed why we cant have so much of them.

And yes, the other skeleton, the skeleton minion cost population points so you cant build alot of these either and they are also not as good as their counterpart in other civs (Skeleton Minion 7.4.1 - Norm 8.5.1).

Think of this as playing the goblins and then only build the first unit available, it works in the first era, the problem is that with Khemri you are stuck with this until the zombie dragons comes.

 

[flexo]

The main bonus of the undead state is being able to build the spell of awakening, which will give you a massive undead army over time.

I do agree that awakening could be great, but I think it comes to late in the game to be of any real usage. Undead state and awakening should be moved an age, second age instead of third. Put it in the same tech slot as the others build all their knight orders, etc.

As it is now it is way to late to have any potential effect, I usually play huge games with all civs and by the time you get to the possibility of having an undead state the game tends to be over already, just a matter of how you want to win.

I have only done it once for the "cool" factor of being totally and utterly undead. But it wasn't worth it.

 

[SirVile]

The hypertext error message is a general civ 'bug' which occurs whenever too many units are listed in the civilopedia entry; it doesn't usually hang the game though, you just klick on OK for the required number of times (a pain in the butt, I agree) and then you can play on. Are you sure it really hung the game? Probably you would just have had to klick OK a few more times.

The first time it hung the game as I was "between turns" had just gotten a tech and was checking out my next step. Wanted to get Iron and the error came up. Basically, the "end of Turn" never finished.

 

[SirVile]

With spells, isn't it just possible for you to launch it at an empty square, or in the sea to get rid of them?

I'm amazed you thought to make 10 questions for ED, SirVile, yet you didn't read the readme (So called because you're meant to read it!) that he included with the mod.

The main bonus of the undead state is being able to build the spell of awakening, which will give you a massive undead army over time.

Read it, but it still seems very weak. I guess I'm not warlike enough for it to be worth it...

 

[Billy Rubin]

I tested Eds Wizard Tower he mentions and it works (I let the worker be able to build it), I don't know if the AI use this but it was quite good to be able to build them, so your spells can reach (especially if undead, see above).

I just started a game yesterday where I made the towers buildable by the upgraded spellcasters, so you need high magic to build them, besides it re-ads some of the uniqueness of spellcasters. As much as I like being able to load them on ships, they've become quite generic units - unfortunately, there's quite some time to go until I can see how it works...

 

[Mr. Do]

Interesting, I wonder if the AI will bother to buld them? I wonder if the AI bothers to build airfields in the first place, though.

Undead state is take it or leave it; don't like it, don't use it. Last time I played as an undead, I switched to the government so I could build the spell of awakening, generate a couple of hundred basic infantry units, then switched back after my war was over.

There's some very neat stuff in the latest WD that could influence updates of the mod- a preview of the Warmaster army list for Araby (They use war elephants, corsairs and flying carpets- now there's a unit I'd love to see, mod or no mod!). Also there's a mention of the entire detailed world map that they've finally put together, with a look at part of it, mainly on the Dark Lands (It's funny that in like 40 pages of discussion Chaos Dwarfs have been mentioned about twice. Does no-one else lament their absence? ). Despite the Kingdoms of Ind also taking up a large part of the image they don't name of the settlements, oh well. A city called Nun-Gau is shown near the what is presumably the great wall of Cathay... damn I wanna see this thing in its entirety!

 

[Khift]

2. Any thoughts on "Hidden Nationality", "Invisibility", "Detect Invisibility" or "Radar" for Spys and Ninja etc (Dragons or casters with Detect Invisibility" would also make sense). Agents have the "Hidden Nationality" ability shouldn't the other "sneaky" units? Invisibility could be used to represent "spirit" units (like Shades) that casters or powerful creatures (Dragons or Daemons) could detect. This all could add an interesting espionage/counter espionage aspect to the Mod...

I don't know what to do here, but something needs to be done. As of right now those Agents, Spies, Ninjas, and Assassins are utterly useless. They walk around in plain sight, can't defend themselves, and don't have enough attack to kill an average unit when you get access to them. They would be actually useful if they were invisible, though. Spies could spy, Agents could spy and or assassinate, and Ninjas and Assassins could actually assassinate and would be useful in picking off those damaged units.

As of right now, though, the only use the Thieves Guild has is using the Agents to help clear your territory of Settler/Spearmen pairs that just never stop appearing, and the other three sneaky characters are totally useless.

 

[BradRinWi]

Read me???
the only read me file i have is a hypertext credits and disclaimer file..

is something missing..?

 

[rogercarstairs]

I don't know what to do here, but something needs to be done. As of right now those Agents, Spies, Ninjas, and Assassins are utterly useless. ...

I've found the Dark Elf Assassins to absolutely devastating for surprise attacks. They move 6 (base 2, but treat all terrain as roads), giving them a big threat radius, and have enough attack to be dangerous to a lot of units. They are also superb scouts, and are great at zipping in and messing with an opponents infrastructure - key road sections, colonies, etc.
The stealth attack is a good bonus ability to pop into a stack and kill off a high-value offensive unit before it has a chance to attack. They are admittedly something of a one-shot (any attack uses up 3 of the 6 impulses) and not cheap, but can be very effective.

RC

 

[Billy Rubin]

Interesting, I wonder if the AI will bother to buld them? I wonder if the AI bothers to build airfields in the first place, though.

Couldn't wait what happened in my game, so I made a little test: I took three factions, set them at locked war, myself being allied with one of them. Made 3 little islands, disabled settlers and put one city for each faction on the islands (no coastal access to prevent building ships and invading conventionally). Then I gave my ally a few wizard lords (can build towers) and a few lightning bolts and placed their cities out of range of it, but made the island big enough to build a tower and reach the enemy capital with spells.
To make sure my ally knew where to put his spell, I gave myself a griffon rider. Then I started the whole thing in debug mode and gave me all techs, passed them on to my ally, so he could build towers (high magic is prerequisite, made my griffon recon the island (had map revealed on anyway, but just to make sure) and passed the map to my ally too. So if he was smart, he'd build a tower and electrocute the others - but he did absolutely nothing - had the wizards and spells fortified in his city. So most likely, the AI wont use towers .
It works fine for me though - I also like the idea of wizards settling down, building their towers and live there (firing spells around ), but I guess it would be another disadvantage for the AI, and there are allready enough of them imho...

 

[Mr. Do]

What about if "build wizard's tower" was a function for workers rather than wizards though? It doesn't surprise me at all to learn that a military unit without the terraform flag checked would not perform a certain worker function; although it'd be neat to have wizards perform that taskty, it's not crucial.

Dark elf assassins are so useful (for reasons explained by rogercarstairs) that sometimes I think that they should perhaps be modified. During many wars with the Dark Elves I've seen them throw so many assassins at heavily-fortified cities it's ridiculous, but that's not because the AI builds them over all the other units, it's because their extra movement capabilities means they will get to enemy territory before the rest of the army, and they won't wait! Other types of assassin units are quite handy when commanded by someone who knows how to use them, but they're they're clearly there for flavour rather than as a main feature. Back at some point in the beta agents could pillage, but that has been removed, definitely for the better! Maybe spies deserve hidden nationality/ invisibility though...