Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion

yeh ive renamed them all Ind. and i guess Jezallis works for ind too

What do you think about Jezails having buffed ranged attack? Handguns and Jezails are not the same.
 
however i think many of these are not grim enough (of course no offense to you or anyone else, thanks for bringing them to the fore)
Kaydo! I will be more grim then ;) Though i think that quotes are not here to be grim or funny, but to give a example, or a discription, or atleast a little referance, to the technology the quote is for.
About the Shieldmaiden: Ankia is a local Warhammer me and my freinds have done alot of story on. (We play campaigns with 'er, big campaigns, and we actually sended Citadel a submission for her as a High Elf special hero, and we got a maybe! yay!)
Though, if you dont like her, i can rewrite all the quotes she's in =)
 
what IS a Jezail?

A jezail is a middle eastern *invention*. It is a large calibre rifle or musket (though wikipedia says musket) fired from a fork with a longer barrel than european blackpowder weapons.

The longer barrel ensured greater accuracy. BTW Arabs hated gunpowder wielding foes and executed them summarily.
 
Vetala (replaces Bloodletters) same stats, -1 strength, has Vampire Promotion
Also remove the pyre-zombie-style explosion.

Rakshasas (Replaces plaguebearers) same stats, death and unholy instead of poison strength, ressurects defeated enemies as 'Trapped Souls'
Trapped Souls (cannot be built) 1 +3 unholy strength, Ethereal promotion. can be consumed by demons to heal them.

I dunno about the trapped soul thing.... maybe. I guess you could just edit this into the demon racial promotion, so you wouldn't have to change every demon unit.
Also, they shouldn't be passing disease or plagues.


and then the UBs are:
Shrine of Change: (Requires Temple of Malal) causes Virabhadra to be spawned in the city, provides +beakers and +GPP priests.
Shrine of Filth: (Requires Temple of Malal) causes Rakshasas to be spawned in the city, provides +health and enemies killed by units in this city are reborn as 'Trapped Souls'.
Shrine of Blood: (Requires Temple of Malal) causes Vetala to be spawned in the city, provides +Mil Prod and unit EXP
Shrine of Greed: (Requires Temple of Malal) causes Yakshas to be spawned in the city, provides +happy and +gold.

These are unnecessary. 1 temple per city. Just a basic shrine of Malal is fine; he is a unitary chaos god.
And these units should be normal buildable units with hammers, not spawned.
Leave that for the Chaos god wonders.

Regarding the Araby Flamethrowers, maybe those could be a siege unit instead of the handgunner?
I'd prefer basic gunners, the flamethrower just doesn't make sense, and is compeltely out of flavor.
(though historically Arabs hated gunpowder troops and executed them summarily)
Source?
I have *never* seen this anywhere.
Arabs and turks were early adopters of gunpowder, though the nature of their armies (feudal/tribal, no professional/drilled standing armies) meant that they still had lots of light melee cavalry even into the early 19th century.

edit: to represent the superior range of jezzails maybe we could increase their ranged bombardment str?
If you want to make jezzails different, they could have an extra first strike but lower strength.
They aren't superior weapons; and Ind should not have superior gunners.

The design has Ind Rifleman, why not call them Jezallis (Ind Jezallis)
This is fine.
Monasticism
"Please Sigmar, spare us from the wrath of the Norscans."
-graffiti found in the ruins of Kell

There is no monasticism tech.
 
Kaydo! I will be more grim then ;) Though i think that quotes are not here to be grim or funny, but to give a example, or a discription, or atleast a little referance, to the technology the quote is for.
About the Shieldmaiden: Ankia is a local Warhammer me and my freinds have done alot of story on. (We play campaigns with 'er, big campaigns, and we actually sended Citadel a submission for her as a High Elf special hero, and we got a maybe! yay!)
Though, if you dont like her, i can rewrite all the quotes she's in =)

Hey dude! Write what you feel like. IMHO the quotes should be grim.
 
Tiger Handlers (Replaces Troll) Strength 5, no metal weapons, 2 moves, +20% Jungle and forest strength. Can summon a permanent Tiger.

Strnegth 5 is too low, make them 6, and double moves in jungle.

No Militia Swordsman
No Militia Spearman
No Militia archers

Woah! Didn't notice *this* before.
Why not? This would be a huuuuge balance change, and would mess up their incentives to tech. What is the reason for this?

Mujahadin Gurrilla
Still spelled Guerilla wrong.

Ethereal can teleport short distances., -25% strength vs deamons +15% defence.
I prefer a physical damage resistance to a defense bonus.

Wind Wraiths (replaces Lancers). Strength 6/4, 3 moves. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat 35%, +25% vs missile units, +25% vs chariots, +25% vs siege units. Flank attack vs melee units.
Remove the flank attack vs melee units. This is an incredibly powerful ability; I ended up removing it from other designs, Cathay aren't a particularly cavalry oriented faction so definitely shouldn't be getting this.

Celestial Dragon (Second Dragon slot) Same as dragon but holy strength instead of fire, +1 move, +1 first strike, -3 strength
If it flies it doesn't need to get +1 movement.
And first strikes are bad idea on really high strength units.
 
Source?
I have *never* seen this anywhere.
Arabs and turks were early adopters of gunpowder, though the nature of their armies (feudal/tribal, no professional/drilled standing armies) meant that they still had lots of light melee cavalry even into the early 19th century.

Sure you have, use the internet. Mamluks disliked using gunpowder. Source? Who called you on sources?

There is no monasticism tech.

If so then who cares about my writing.
 
Woah! Didn't notice *this* before.
Why not? This would be a huuuuge balance change, and would mess up their incentives to tech. What is the reason for this?

whoa neither did i HAHA i think it must be residue from your ind design before? ill ditch that.

i forgot to save my changes last time so hopefully the changes are all up now.
 
Sure you have, use the internet.

You're telling me what I have or haven't read? Seriously?
I'm not doubting you that Mameluk soldiers didn't like using gunpowder, merely that their rulers would execute them for doing so.

Mamluks disliked using gunpowder.
a) Araby isn't representing just Mameluks, they're representing the middle east in general, including Arabia, the Levant, Ottomans and general arabian nights fantasy/mythology.
Ottomans were early adopters of gunpowder:
"The Ottoman Empire had been one of the first Middle Eastern states (that extended into Europe, making them the first European state as well) to effectively use gunpowder weapons and used them to great effect conquering much of the Middle East, North Africa, and the Balkans. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_warfare#Ottoman_Empire

b) The Egyptian Mameluk dynasties didn't use gunpowder much, but that is partly of their timing and their lack of access to gunpowder.
The Mameluks are gone by 1517; gunpowder weapons (not cannons) weren't very good by then.
Also: "Al-Hassan claims that "the first cannon in history" was used by the Mamluks against the Mongols at the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260"

If so then who cares about my writing.
I'm confused. I'm just trying to stop people from spending time writing quotes for techs that don't exist.
The other stuff looked good to me.
 
You're telling me what I have or haven't read? Seriously?
I'm not doubting you that Mameluk soldiers didn't like using gunpowder, merely that their rulers would execute them for doing so.

I was wrong about arabs executing gunpowder troops, I admit it.

I'm confused. I'm just trying to stop people from spending time writing quotes for techs that don't exist.
The other stuff looked good to me.
My butt hurtedness is only mildly soothed, really Ahriman you need to express yourself better, just like you asked PL too with his slaan post. Otherwise people could take offense from your curt replies. Does that remove your confusion?

Also: "Al-Hassan claims that "the first cannon in history" was used by the Mamluks against the Mongols at the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260"

This is why I hate wikipedia. the same article you are quoting also says it was the mongols who introduced gunpowder to the muslims.
Spoiler :
The Arabs acquired knowledge of gunpowder some time after 1240 AD, but before 1280 AD, by which time Hasan al-Rammah had written, in Arabic, recipes for gunpowder, instructions for the purification of saltpeter, and descriptions of gunpowder incendiaries.[23] However, because al-Rammah attributes his material to "his father and forefathers", al-Hassan () argues that gunpowder became prevalent in Syria and Egypt by "the end of the twelfth century or the beginning of the thirteenth".
A picture of a 15th century Granadian cannon from the book Al-izz wal rifa'a.

Al-Hassan claims that in the Battle of Ain Jalut of 1260 AD, the Mamluks used against the Mongols in "the first cannon in history" gunpowder formulae with near identical ideal composition ratios for explosive gunpowder.[24][25] However, Khan claims that it was invading Mongols who introduced gunpowder to the Islamic world[26] and cites Mamluk antagonism towards early riflemen in their infantry as an example of how gunpowder weapons were not always met with open acceptance in the Middle East.[27] Similarly, the refusal of their Qizilbash forces to use firearms contributed to the Safavid rout at Chaldiran in 1514.[27]

This is a silly debate, we are arguing about a fictional setting. Lets focus on something else.
 
the main thing to remember here is warhammer is FICTION as deadliver points out. it is not a copy of real life, it is a mirror world. what ifs etc. we dont want to make araby exactly like Earths Middle East. thats boring. we need to use artistic lisence.
 
Creativity... Inspiration... Artistic lisence... Artistic INSENCE...


:drool:
 
There is no monasticism tech.
Source?
I have *never* seen this anywhere.

I'm surprised that you were offended by these; nevertheless I apologize for having done so.

I think we're old enough and mature enough that we can convey information and have argumentative discussions without being personally offended, and without having to sugar-coat criticism. There is a lot of content to get through.

I agree that it is unimportant whether or not Mameluks used gunpowder weapons historically. I think that Araby represents the Muslim world in general, and so it makes sense for them to have some kind of gunpowder weapons; if you guys want it to be a flamethrower, then that's fine.
 
Well, as nice as a Flamethrower'd be...I see it as something more suited to the Mechanos (FFPlus & Orbis) than Araby. But whatever, I don't have a strong opinion. Araby isn't 1 of the civs I have strong opinions about.
The Jezzail, on the other hand, I can REALLY see that. That fits.
 
ok is everything ok with ind and araby?

Ind Peasant (Replaces Warrior) same stats. no upkeep cost.

I'd go with the basic warrior. No other factions have a warrior replacement, and having no upkeep on such a cheap unit means that you could easily spam a dozen of them or more without wrecking your economy, and having a huge buffer for anyone who wanted to attack you.

Yakshas (Replaces Daemonettes) 2 movement, no metal weapons, strength 7. Enemy cities within 3 squares get -2 gold and -1 influence, friendly cities get +2 gold and +1 influence

These guys could still be pretty weak; the charm person that daemonettes get is a very powerful ability. Maybe a decent withdraw chance, ~30%?
Asavar Kul (Replaces Deamon Prince) (National limit 1) Requires Chaos Incursion. Requires Corruption of Chaos state religion. Strength 16, demon, 2 moves

Maybe 12+4 unholy?

Otherwise looks good.

can i move on to nippon?
Should be fine.
 
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