Nelia Hawk
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2009
- Messages
- 57
@ Ahriman
ignoreing can be used with the etherial units like spirits and the banshee, they would just pass through the walls.
and dont forget that they have necromancers. they can just summon units that they can throw against the walls.
maybe fear/terror could be used too. i.e. if a unit inside a town is affected by fear or terror they reduce the defence value a bit (fear 2%, terror 5%) as they cause a bit panik inside the walls...
in the table top there is a death spell that inflicts fear/terror... maybe this spell can be used somehow in civ4 that your own units cause terror instead of fear for a round to lower it by 5%.
or to inflict fear or terror into the enemy stack so they lower that defense value because units in a town are affected by fear/terror.
or generally undead units attacking a town reduce the defence by -1 or -2 %. it could be seen like this: the city defenders see endless waves of undead units attacking the town and they get frightened... i.e. zombies could be summoned behind the walls too (i know you cant in civ4 summon units in enemy stacks. but you could see summon like that too) i guess it would panik the town when zombies come out of their graveyards inside the town and waves of enemys from the outside.
hmm... maybe undead units could cause "unrest" or -happyness in a town so that it rebels (a bit)? and the defence value is lowered that way.
atleast to lower the defense value like this could be more fitting to undeads then adding a catapult... ofcourse adding a catapult is way easyer then implementing the other ideas above in a balanced way...
ohh, i missed the part that it is seen as assassin. (had no idea what the marksman promo did)
but vampires ARE powerful necromancy casters and powerfull warriors...
yeah i see the problem ofcourse... they dont have much weaknesses then and are quite strong.
maybe limiting blood dragon to lvl1 spells
all others to lvl 1+2
and necrarch to lvl 1-3
necromancers to lvl1. (spells 0-2)
could help?
but they all can cast all 7 spells and they are the "heroes" of the vampire army and they are the mages of the vampire army too.
they "just" get little (compared to a vampires) necromancers as other magical unit. who can just know 1-3 spells of the first 3 (0-2) with one power dice (magic lvl1).
vampires have magic lvl 1
vampire lords have lvl 2 and can buy lvl 3 and can buy the 4th lvl with a bloodline skill.
(7th vampire edition)
yeah, a boni to the spawn rate... not population grow.... but the spawn rate is somehow the population grow for khemri
but cavalry IS a strength for vampires. (in a different way then britonnia or empire, but it is a strength)
thea have:
dire wolves (light cavalry)
corpse cart (light support necromancer chariot)
black knights (medium cavalry)
blood knights (elite cavalry)
black coach (special chariot)
and the blood dragon knight vampires.
hmm you dont have a mechanic in the mod that represents their weakness of (what is it called in english?...), in the tabletop game they lose extra wounds when they lose the combat... extra models die... and when the general dies they all have to test and lose models... argh i dont know the english name... but i guess you know what i mean.
maybe that -20% strengh of the ethernal army promotion can be seen as this.
but when you think vampires are too strong, why dont you add this weakness too in a bit more radical way?
like: when a vampire dies the whole stack and own units one field next to it have a 25% chance to lose 0-25% health. (thrall 0-25%, count 0-50%, lord 0-75%)
or/and:
when a unit takes damage 10% of that damage gets added after combat. (i.e. a str 4 unit fights and survives with str 2... so it lost 50% of its str in combat. so they take 25% of that as additional damage, that would be 25% of 2= 0.5 so they have 1,5str after the combat.
if it would have survived with str 1: -25% of damage3 = 0,75 ... so it would lost 0,75 more and it would have 0,25 str instead of 1 at the end.)
or/and:
if a unit is under 10% base str it dies imediately.
(i.e. the 2 examples from above. the str 1,5 one would have more then 10% of its base str (0,4) so its alive. the 2nd unit with 0,25%str would die imediately because it has less then 10% of its base str (0,4)... ofcourse this unit has the chance to resurruct now)
i.e.:
domination: 1 random unit cant attack and has no firststrikes.
seduction: 1 random unit attacks its own stack.
you chose the target enemy stack and a random unit is chosen as target.
if you think its too powerfull... change the balance.
lahmia thralls could seduce 1 random unit. counts 2 random units and lords 3 random units. (if my idea from above with the promotions is used)
(in the tabketop they are:
domination: costs 40 points, morale test, if failed cant attack and all attack against it hit automaticaly.
seduction: costs 55 points. morale test, if failed attacks its own side... etcetc...)
khemri are the desert undeads... vampires are not.
the tomb king "heavy" knights are not in heavy armor and the steeds are not barded either...
and yeah... "chariots" are very tomb king... but, these chariots are light chariots, so they are weaker as all other chariot versions. but can make groups.
so tomb kings have:
light cavalry: basically a skeleton with a bow on a skeleton horse. (light horse archer lvl1 in your design)
heavy cavalry: a skeleton with a spear, light armor and a shield on a skeleton horse. (light lancer? cavalry lvl1)
light chariots: builded with bones... quite fast but not quite durable or strong... can use bows like light cavalry... (light chariot lvl1) i guess normal light chariot stats with -1/-1 (or -1/-2)str, some movement bonus in desert, and a little withdraw chance?
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@rocklikeafool
should be the same with lizardman ones.
atleast when you go with the warhammer lore (have the 7th edition d11 book infront of me atm) poison isnt mentioned atall not even in the story text. and its "unknown" where the hydras come from: if they existed already as the old ones where still there. or if they are influenced with chaos of the winds of magic in their evolution.
but its mentioned that they breath fire. (rules are: fire breath weapon. strength is the same as the number of wounds the hydra has remeining.)
but i guess to argue over +2 poison or +2 fire is quite useless.
i mean they "ignore MOVEMENT penalities" as they just pass through things because they are etherial (banshee/spirits) or use the "etherial movement rule" (skeleton vampire steeds) so i.e. bushes, a hedge, a wall, alot rocks... that would restrict fast movement are ignored.
ignoreing can be used with the etherial units like spirits and the banshee, they would just pass through the walls.
and dont forget that they have necromancers. they can just summon units that they can throw against the walls.
maybe fear/terror could be used too. i.e. if a unit inside a town is affected by fear or terror they reduce the defence value a bit (fear 2%, terror 5%) as they cause a bit panik inside the walls...
in the table top there is a death spell that inflicts fear/terror... maybe this spell can be used somehow in civ4 that your own units cause terror instead of fear for a round to lower it by 5%.
or to inflict fear or terror into the enemy stack so they lower that defense value because units in a town are affected by fear/terror.
or generally undead units attacking a town reduce the defence by -1 or -2 %. it could be seen like this: the city defenders see endless waves of undead units attacking the town and they get frightened... i.e. zombies could be summoned behind the walls too (i know you cant in civ4 summon units in enemy stacks. but you could see summon like that too) i guess it would panik the town when zombies come out of their graveyards inside the town and waves of enemys from the outside.
hmm... maybe undead units could cause "unrest" or -happyness in a town so that it rebels (a bit)? and the defence value is lowered that way.
atleast to lower the defense value like this could be more fitting to undeads then adding a catapult... ofcourse adding a catapult is way easyer then implementing the other ideas above in a balanced way...
ohh, i missed the part that it is seen as assassin. (had no idea what the marksman promo did)
but vampires ARE powerful necromancy casters and powerfull warriors...
yeah i see the problem ofcourse... they dont have much weaknesses then and are quite strong.
maybe limiting blood dragon to lvl1 spells
all others to lvl 1+2
and necrarch to lvl 1-3
necromancers to lvl1. (spells 0-2)
could help?
but they all can cast all 7 spells and they are the "heroes" of the vampire army and they are the mages of the vampire army too.
they "just" get little (compared to a vampires) necromancers as other magical unit. who can just know 1-3 spells of the first 3 (0-2) with one power dice (magic lvl1).
vampires have magic lvl 1
vampire lords have lvl 2 and can buy lvl 3 and can buy the 4th lvl with a bloodline skill.
(7th vampire edition)
yeah, a boni to the spawn rate... not population grow.... but the spawn rate is somehow the population grow for khemri
true, vampires shouldnt get horsearchers. khemri should get them.
but cavalry IS a strength for vampires. (in a different way then britonnia or empire, but it is a strength)
thea have:
dire wolves (light cavalry)
corpse cart (light support necromancer chariot)
black knights (medium cavalry)
blood knights (elite cavalry)
black coach (special chariot)
and the blood dragon knight vampires.
hmm you dont have a mechanic in the mod that represents their weakness of (what is it called in english?...), in the tabletop game they lose extra wounds when they lose the combat... extra models die... and when the general dies they all have to test and lose models... argh i dont know the english name... but i guess you know what i mean.
maybe that -20% strengh of the ethernal army promotion can be seen as this.
but when you think vampires are too strong, why dont you add this weakness too in a bit more radical way?
like: when a vampire dies the whole stack and own units one field next to it have a 25% chance to lose 0-25% health. (thrall 0-25%, count 0-50%, lord 0-75%)
or/and:
when a unit takes damage 10% of that damage gets added after combat. (i.e. a str 4 unit fights and survives with str 2... so it lost 50% of its str in combat. so they take 25% of that as additional damage, that would be 25% of 2= 0.5 so they have 1,5str after the combat.
if it would have survived with str 1: -25% of damage3 = 0,75 ... so it would lost 0,75 more and it would have 0,25 str instead of 1 at the end.)
or/and:
if a unit is under 10% base str it dies imediately.
(i.e. the 2 examples from above. the str 1,5 one would have more then 10% of its base str (0,4) so its alive. the 2nd unit with 0,25%str would die imediately because it has less then 10% of its base str (0,4)... ofcourse this unit has the chance to resurruct now)
balance can be adjusted...
i.e.:
domination: 1 random unit cant attack and has no firststrikes.
seduction: 1 random unit attacks its own stack.
you chose the target enemy stack and a random unit is chosen as target.
if you think its too powerfull... change the balance.
lahmia thralls could seduce 1 random unit. counts 2 random units and lords 3 random units. (if my idea from above with the promotions is used)
(in the tabketop they are:
domination: costs 40 points, morale test, if failed cant attack and all attack against it hit automaticaly.
seduction: costs 55 points. morale test, if failed attacks its own side... etcetc...)
true, they have not much to do with the desert.
khemri are the desert undeads... vampires are not.
they have a heavy knight unit... but you cant compare it to britonnia heavy knights or empire knights... or even to vampire knights.
the tomb king "heavy" knights are not in heavy armor and the steeds are not barded either...
and yeah... "chariots" are very tomb king... but, these chariots are light chariots, so they are weaker as all other chariot versions. but can make groups.
so tomb kings have:
light cavalry: basically a skeleton with a bow on a skeleton horse. (light horse archer lvl1 in your design)
heavy cavalry: a skeleton with a spear, light armor and a shield on a skeleton horse. (light lancer? cavalry lvl1)
light chariots: builded with bones... quite fast but not quite durable or strong... can use bows like light cavalry... (light chariot lvl1) i guess normal light chariot stats with -1/-1 (or -1/-2)str, some movement bonus in desert, and a little withdraw chance?
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@rocklikeafool
they get the bonus "cause fear" (tabletop a bit more like +1 armor, +1 str) and the malus "stupidity".
should be the same with lizardman ones.
yeah, it is... the problem i have is more the killing blow
warhammer darkelf hydras have nothing to do with poison. and have nothing to do with red dragons either.
atleast when you go with the warhammer lore (have the 7th edition d11 book infront of me atm) poison isnt mentioned atall not even in the story text. and its "unknown" where the hydras come from: if they existed already as the old ones where still there. or if they are influenced with chaos of the winds of magic in their evolution.
but its mentioned that they breath fire. (rules are: fire breath weapon. strength is the same as the number of wounds the hydra has remeining.)
but i guess to argue over +2 poison or +2 fire is quite useless.
oh, you got it wrong what i mean. not the terrain penalty of i.e. -25% str in forests.
i mean they "ignore MOVEMENT penalities" as they just pass through things because they are etherial (banshee/spirits) or use the "etherial movement rule" (skeleton vampire steeds) so i.e. bushes, a hedge, a wall, alot rocks... that would restrict fast movement are ignored.
. Plus, your other ideas would require more code than their worth. I mean as much as we’re trying to stick to WH lore here, sometimes it’s best to do it the simplest way. What you’re suggesting would require a lot of code. A catapult OTOH, the code is already there. Imho, there’s no reason to have a very intricate mechanic for only a civ or two, when we already have a mechanic that (1 does the same thing, (2 the AI understands perfectly, (3 is something we’re already working on balancing & (4 is already there in the FF base code. 
I think I'll start coding the Lizardmen tomorrow, btw.
it was more of a joke really. and yes, you are bloody invaluable when it comes to design balance.
*mass joy*
