Was Hitler Master Of The Third Reich Or A Weak Dictator?

Was Hitler Master Of The Third Reich Or A Weak Dictator?

  • Master Of The Third Reich

    Votes: 45 49.5%
  • Weak Dictator

    Votes: 13 14.3%
  • A bit of both

    Votes: 32 35.2%
  • Don't Know, Don't Care, Other

    Votes: 1 1.1%

  • Total voters
    91
He was a "bit of both." At one point, he commanded the Germans into France, Poland, etc. He was well on his way to conquering Europe, and then he invaded the Soviet Union, and Stalin, being the man he was, retaliated and crushed the Germans on the eastern front. Also, the United States was staging an invasion of Normandy to liberate France and defeat the Nazi army...

But as soon as Hitler started to lose, he went even crazier and began using astrology to guide his armies, and used ridiculous tactics in hoping to defeat the US, UK, and USSR.

Well, we all know how it turned out.
 
Hmmm. Like any fledgling dictatorship, the third reich had to fight for it's survival. In this sense, Hitler was often constrained by his actions during his consolidation of power. However, as his position became more secure, he became more personally powerful and secure in it. Both, really.
 
Originally posted by CrazyDuck
between 1933-39 he was the grand dictator of germany who could inspire his nation to great things with the help of his ministers

Whoooaaaaaaa, whoa, whoa.

Back to reality.

During a lot of the 1933-39 period Hitler's regime was still finding it's feet. Some historians argue that The Nazi's hold on power was not fully internally secure until 1935, some as late as 1938. To say that Hitler was some sort of 'grand dictator' from 1933 onwards, who could do anything to anything, is slightly naive.
 
To say that Hitler was some sort of 'grand dictator' from 1933 onwards, who could do anything to anything, is slightly naive.
It all depends on whether you think it is possibly to be a grand dictator who could do anything that you please. From 1934 and Hitler becoming Commander-In-Chief there was no legal way to remove him. He had control all of the state. Sure the Nazi policy was as radical as it would become in 1938-45 but is not necessarily evidence of Hitler's power. He didn't have enough power to seriously think about taking on the church. However he did crush the trade unions, have foreign policy successes, gear the economy towards rearmament, gain all political power, have massive popular support, removed most of his enemies (i.e. Night of the Long Knives), etc. He certainly had a lot of power by 1934 and someone calling him a grand dictator surely doesn't deserve to be called 'naive'.
 
He managed to take Germany to wrack and ruin...someone who was not in control could not have managed that.

Only at the end when he ordered Germany to be turned into a desert did some carefully avoid putting it into practice.
 
I voted a bit of both.

If he was a master he would have won WW2. If he was completely inept he wouldn't have done as much damage as he was able to do and still be in command for the period of time.
 
Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
He managed to take Germany to wrack and ruin...someone who was not in control could not have managed that.

Only at the end when he ordered Germany to be turned into a desert did some carefully avoid putting it into practice.

He took Germany from the slums, and brought it back too....(taking great parts of mainly Russia and Poland with him)
 
I remember that Mussolini was deposed as soon as the Italian mainland was invaded...and that he was hung by Italians in the street...
 
Originally posted by MrPresident
It all depends on whether you think it is possibly to be a grand dictator who could do anything that you please. From 1934 and Hitler becoming Commander-In-Chief there was no legal way to remove him.

Legally removing dictators is generally considered slightly, umm, impossible.

The point I am making is that Hitler's early regime was hugely constrained by it's infant position. That much is undeniable. It still had an establishment that was essentially still largely dminated by the old conservative elite. Reversing that situation took time.

Originally posted by MrPresident
He had control all of the state. Sure the Nazi policy was as radical as it would become..

Bizzarely, you illustrate my point rather well.

Hitler built up and consolidated his power over time. It was not magically given to him from day one. All dictators need to do this, to ensure their political survival and strengthen their position, and it obviously takes a while to be in an unassailible position.

I stand by the original statement.
 
Legally removing dictators is generally considered slightly, umm, impossible.
Again I shall point to Mussolini. The King remained in Italy and so Mussolini could be legally removed. Which was what happened in 1943.
it obviously takes a while to be in an unassailible position.
Actually most historians think that Hitler had built up an unassalible position by 1934. I don't know about you but one year is hardly a long time. What you have to remember is that Hitler gained power in a gradual but very quick way and he used legal methods. Hence that from 1934 he could not be removed legally.
 
Originally posted by MrPresident
Again I shall point to Mussolini. The King remained in Italy and so Mussolini could be legally removed. Which was what happened in 1943.

Heh. And you actually think the King would have ever tried to remove Mussolini during the peak of his power?

Dream on, heh.

Originally posted by MrPresident
Hence that from 1934 he could not be removed legally.

You miss the point entirely. Hitler having legal invulnerability in his 1934 position does not mean he had actual political invulnerability. Can you see this point?
 
Heh. And you actually think the King would have ever tried to remove Mussolini during the peak of his power?
You said that it was impossible for a dictator to be legally removed from power. I give you an example of how that is not true. I never said if it was pratical or not.
You miss the point entirely. Hitler having legal invulnerability in his 1934 position does not mean he had actual political invulnerability. Can you see this point?
I disagree. To build up a position of legal invulnerability suggests to me a degree of political invulnerability. You tell me who Hitler's rivals for power were when he got legal invulnerability and I think you will find that they had no realistic way of removing him, except an assasination, of which there were many.
 
Originally posted by MrPresident
It is debatable as whether or not the Nazis ever convicted the Germans of their anti-semitic ideology.

In my opinion here is a mistake and propaganda-effect - mainly concern of germans in '30 was the communism. For this mainly Hitler win the election.

This letter was discovered by a junior minister and used to increase his own power.

You're right here !!
The main weak point of a tyrannical system is that a single man ( or a small number ) couldn't control everthing effective !! So - many "two-eshallon"people try to impose their measure to get more power !!

In fact I read studies which argue that the British "total war" was more strictely and effective that the German mobilisation and war industry management !!
 
Originally posted by Mîtiu Ioan
In my opinion here is a mistake and propaganda-effect - mainly concern of germans in '30 was the communism. For this mainly Hitler win the election.
That's not really true. Communism was indeed very popular with many workers. In fact the communist party grew stronger and stronger in the early 30s, as did the Nazi party.
Communism was the main concern of Germany's leading class, they feared a revolution like in Russia. That's why they brought Hitler to power despite he did never win an election.
Most Germans of that time didn't like Democracy in the first place. So they searched for alternatives on the far left and far right. But neither the Nazis nor the Communists did ever win an election.
 
But neither the Nazis nor the Communists did ever win an election.
Depends on your definition on what an election win is. The Nazi were the largest party with 44% of the vote in 1932. They didn't have a majority but could join with other extreme right-wing parties and then they would have a majority. The type of election that Germany had (and still has) doesn't make it very easier to get a major, coalitions are often needed. So I think that the Nazis did win the election and were voted in. I mean how could the ruling class ignore a man with the popular support that Hitler had?
The electorate forced the elites to put Hitler in power.
 
Originally posted by MrPresident
Depends on your definition on what an election win is. The Nazi were the largest party with 44% of the vote in 1932.
Whatever definition, your figure is wrong. The Nazi party did not win these 44% in 1932 but in March 1933. There were two elections in 32 and one in March 33 and as you might know that was AFTER Hitler became chancellor and started his terror regime (in January 33).
In the last election before he was appointed chancellor, his Nazi party won only 33% (a decline from the 37% in the first 1932 election).
Precisly the (relevant) results for the election on the 6th of November 1932 were:
NSDAP (Nazi Party): 33.09%
SPD (Social Dem.): 20.44%
KPD (Communists): 16.86%
Zentrum (Lib./Conserv.): 11.93%
DNVP (Nationalists): 8.83%
The rest voted for small parties.

As you see, the NSDAP was far away from a majority, in fact the two left parties together were stronger.
And even together with the nationalists (most of them didn't want it) they wouldn't have had a majority.
In fact Hindenburg appointed minority governments since 1930. Because of the Weimar constitution he was able to govern practically alone with the chancellor and he even had the right to restrict elemental constitutional rights and freedoms.
But he feared a complete dictatorship if he would appoint Hitler, who pressed him to do so as he saw the NSDAP decline in the second election of 32. Hindenburg first appointed the von Schleicher administration and not Hitler.
Then the lobbying for Hitler intensified resulting in Hindenburg finally (30. January 1933) appointing Hitler.
Then Hitler proposed to Hindenburg to announce new elections (by disassembling parliament). In the weeks until these elections the Nazis already persecuted the opposition (in particular the left) resulting in that 44% you mentioned. In fact that it was ONLY 44% shows how many people didn't like Hitler originally.
So I think that the Nazis did win the election and were voted in.
As you see they did not and therefore this:
The electorate forced the elites to put Hitler in power.
is simply wrong. ;)
Many even argue that if they hadn't put Hitler into power, the Nazi party's election results would have constantly dropped back to the point where they once were. This is speculation though...
 
I would certainly vote "Don't know".

And I think I have good reasons for doing so as I have investigated in Hitlers own writings and he has been a target of my interest in may years. This I can conclude after my to date studies:

* Hitler is one of the 'great' men since Leonard da Vinci we know absolutely lessest about whom he actually was. The main reasons are:

A) That Hitler left so very little writings after himself. What we have is roughly "Mein Kampf" and the essays he wrote for "Völkischer Beobachter" 1928-1931 (one every second week). "Mein Kampf" then is a book which is very constructed to give a certain political and personal impression, and several of Hitlers speeches show this fact as they differ on very fundamental points; for example Hitler knew very well that the Jews were not a Race. His actual racism was actually much more sophisticated then he tells in "Mein Kampf". He often laughed over the other Nazi highs racist wiews, for example he at several occasions called Alfred Rosenbergs book of Nazist and Racist Ideology "Laughable" and "Rubbish". So; it is not necessarily so that what Hitler writes in "Mein Kampf" is what he actually though on many things. It is difficult to make sure, and what we have mostly contradicts it. The VB essays are exactly the same kind of writing like "Mein Kampf"; raljant, polemic, aggressive, and ...constructed to give the same impression. But my point is, that except these writings, Hitler left almost no longer comprehensive text at all. What is left is in princip just autographs, bookmarginal-notes and similar short signs. So conclusion: we have very little evidence of whom he really was as person.

B) Hitler was also very secret in his private life and getting along with others. He very seldom and to very few people uttered any personal or more elaborated dedicated political thoughts at all. In the years before he became dictator, mainly the 1920ies; he showed up at the meetings at the Nazi party, and did his daily work as leader, but in his spare time nobody knew what he was doing. He seems to have known nobody privately. After he became dictator he mainly did what day-to-day work required, but the only people he actually socialized with was a narrow circle of adjutants and secretarys, and then he also talked most about things that did not actually reveal very much about what he actually wanted to do, what he thought and felt, personally or politically.

C) Hitlers method of arguing, in speeches and writings makes him even more difficult to interpret for some reasons. he often did things like taking up parts of his antagonists arguments, adn driving them to their farest extent, meanwhile leaving out some of their points. This is a trick to win the debates, and does not necessarily have to mean that he at those times expressed his own beliefs while arguing.
Also, and this is very typical for Hitler; he very often mixes logical arguments with emotional arguments. And the Theory of Argumentation Analysis in Philosophy tells that if one really intends to create statements with any constructive actual meaning, this is strictly forbidden to do. Almost like dividing with zero in mathematics; forbidden. This method of course makes his arguments both difficult to analyze and interpret, and to respond to as well.

So; this is three things that should have us tell that we actually don't know much about who Hitler actually was. he can be interpreted very differently even on the most basic points of his politics, a closer study will show this even more clear. Actually I would say the more I study Hitler, the more mysterious he appears to be to me.

I do belong to those few who think that a re-valueing of Hitler is needed. I think it is well possible to wiew Hitler in a more positive light then he is traditionally seen. Unfourtunatly, most people who say this are neo-Nazists, which makes it difficualt to argue for, still I think it is a good thing. Also, ok we have no written evidence that Hitler gave order about the Holocaust, right it could have been actually ordered by others or having been a solution on a much lower level, but on the other hand, the Holocaust could likely not have occured without that Hitler knew it, and therefore it is right to say that he was responsible for it. This horrible crime makes people react with disguist immideately and therefore few are receptive to what I claim here. I don't want to defend the holocaust in any way, but still I think Hitler should be judged without emotional engagement to get a more accurate wiew of him as a phenomeon.

There are, again, very little we actually know about Hitler, and there are many misbeliefs and images whicha ren't correct. Hitler is for example often described as a intelligent (but not extreme on that point), but uneducated and unliterate. Not much research is needed to prove the opposite. We have a lot of books that Hitler read left, and we can know that he read them and thought about them because they are generally full with marginal notes of his handwriting. He read about many kinds of things, also topics one might not expect, like religion, orientalism, America etc, and he read a lot, whole his life. This makes his result more difficult to grasp, then it is more then unusual that a massmurder is a literate person.

It is no idea not to be able to recognize and accept Hitlers advances, that he was a very good speaker or painter for example, but to do that is a good sign that one judges Hitler emotionally and not rationally.

Hitler likely also knew both what he was doing and, likely he was intentionally so secret as he wanted it to be difficult for the afterworld to interpret him. There is a saying of Hitler, adn many have heard him say that: "If I win the war, I will be hailed as one of World Historys Greatest - and if I loose it I will forever be the evil personified".

Say what you want but the winners write the history.

And Hitler played a high game.

And he lost.

Mats Norrman
mats.norrman@home.se
 
I'll take this time to dismiss some lies about Hitler:
1)He was straight: Hitler was found making love to another man in a Barn in the First World War. Also, a friend of Hitler wrote in his diary saying that he "spent the night" with Hitler.

2)Lebensraum was his main aim: In fact Lebensraum was one of his least important aims, having only 3 pages at the end of the "Mein Kampf". His main aim's were infact no different from your average German: total revision of Versailles, Germany for Germans and expel the Jews. Somewhere along the way this reasonably right winger (for Germany at that time) became far right. (Read AJP Taylor, The origins of the Second World War)

3)Hitler's government was efficient: No, it wasn't. He's government had mirror government offices. So they had double the civil servants.

4)Hitler always wanted war: Hitler didn't war, he was a mere oppurtunist. Everytime Britain and France appeased his aggression he would go and invade another nation until it came to Poland. The amazing fact is that Hitler only ordered Total War conditions until 1943/4. He still wanted peace at a late stage. Still hoped that "Germanic" will join there crusade against the slavic Bolshevik Russians.

5)Hitler wasn't influenced by business: Throughout his career he constantly watered down his politics to appeal to the business man

ps. Please correct if I made any wrong points.
 
Originally posted by redtom
2)Lebensraum was his main aim: In fact Lebensraum was one of his least important aims, having only 3 pages at the end of the "Mein Kampf".

I would say Lebensraum was one of his main aims.

I generally wouldn't suggest anyone read 'Mein Kampf' to get an understanding of what Hitler believed in or was about. It is mostly a ranting, incoherent piece. You really have to analyse his entire political lfie and actions.

Lebensraum was certainly high up on his list of priorities, however. Territorial expansion was an absolute neccessity if a Greater Germany was going to be created.

Originally posted by redtom
His main aim's were infact no different from your average German: total revision of Versailles, Germany for Germans and expel the Jews.

That isn't true on many levels. Firstly, Hitler was indeed a believer in pan-Germaism, and the logical extension of that, Lebensraum, and he always would be.

Versailles became more and more unimportant to the equation as time went on, repayments were restructued, etc.

There is also no evidence to suggest that most Germans, or even a large majority started off as anti-semitic. It would only be fully developed in the German psyche when Hitler gained power. In the 20's it was mostly a belief held by various sections of the Elite and some portions of the middle class.

Originally posted by redtom
Somewhere along the way this reasonably right winger (for Germany at that time) became far right.

Hitler was never a reasonable right-winger, even amongst his contempories during his entire political career.

Originally posted by redtom
5)Hitler wasn't influenced by business: Throughout his career he constantly watered down his politics to appeal to the business man

Hitler attempted to appeal to everybody, and it worked, for a large part. Business was nothing particularly special, although it was an obvious source of funding. Hitler told various sections of society what they wanted to hear, and always left his exact message ambiguous.
 
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