Washington's NFL team's name should be changed

Can you elaborate on this history a little? I'm curious.

There were a lot of nasty times with the former owner and his ex-wives, including some tapes that were presented in open court in a divorce hearing (for some reason) that were spiritual ancestors of the current Donald Stirling tape crisis in the NBA (though his views weren't limited to blacks and in fact focused more on Jews). It was before social media made that kind of scandal uncontainable and the NFL did a pretty good job of containment...bearing in mind this was in a time where 'blacks make good football players but they'll never play quarterback in the NFL because they just aren't smart enough' was the conventional wisdom and seldom even complained about.

If you look up Jack Kent Cooke you should find plenty of stuff to examine. Keep in mind that he owned the main rival paper in LA, so stuff from the LA Times may not be the most reliable.
 
Can you elaborate on this history a little? I'm curious.

Which part? The phasing out or the racist legacy of the Washington Football team?

For the latter: essentially the Washington Football team was the absolute last to integrate, mostly because the owner at the time was a capital R Racist who didn't want black players on his team. (Fun fact: there remains to this day a fairly large Dallas Cowboys rooting interest in Washington specifically because black football fans felt alienated by Washington's racist doctrines and so took to rooting for the division rival Cowboys). Eventually US Congress had to pass a bill forcing the Washington team to integrate. A black star player from the Cleveland Browns was force-traded to Washington, if I recall correctly. This was in the mid-60s.

For the phasing out look no further than the Cleveland Indians. They first inaugurated their name in the mid-19teens after their star player, captain, manager, and team namesake Napoleon Lajoie retired from baseball. A city referendum picked "Indian" to be the club's new moniker. In the mid-20s or 30s the first iterations of the now-infamous "Chief Wahoo" were developed. This is an open and shut offensively racist image depicting a smiling stereotypical native American in redface makeup (big, red lips). The team has used this logo proudly for much of its history and was the logo going on the team's caps at least going back to the 60s. They also had the logo on the upper-left chest of their home jerseys

(like so):
a_sleeveless_vt.jpg


It's their sleeve patch, and it's prominently featured in their stadium.

In the last 5-6 years we've seen a massive scaling back of Chief Wahoo. Luckily right now baseball is going through a stage where deadball era and pre-cold war era unis are very in so it was both logical and easy for the Indians organization to swap out the wahoo-caps with retro-deadball(ish) style caps with a simple block letter C on it. Gone are the wahoo-jerseys. The Indians have all but burned any evidence of them sticking around. The only place Chief Wahoo is to be found these days is as a shoulder patch. Those may well be gone soon.

The Indians fall into a similar-but-different boat as the Washington Football club. Unlike Washington, the Indians name is pretty unobjectionable. The problem is the logo, which is clearly derogatory and offensive. Because Wahoo and the name are linked in trademark, the Washington trademark ruling establishes a precedent which will almost certainly cost the Indians their trademark if it were to go to court. Of course it seems the Indians have been preparing for this over the last 6 or 7 years, so it will be a pretty easy fix for the team.

I doubt the Braves are at risk. Unlike Washington, the Braves actually have a legitimate claim to the "noble heritage" thing or whatever. The name is no different than calling yourself "The Spartans" or "The Trojans" or "The Warriors". The Braves eliminated most of their actual depictions of Native Americans awhile ago. They got the tomahawk on their logo, and I don't think anybody can really argue that its presence is disparaging. The only really bad thing about the Braves is that godawful tomahawk chop thing, but there's really not much anybody can do about that. Most people already hate it as it is, without having to throw in the rasism angle to it.

The Blackhawks should be fine too. The name comes from an actual person. Not really disparaging (actually, *literally* "honoring" nickname). Their problem is the logo, which portrays a stereotypical native American and was apparently a drawing done by the Blackhawks owner's wife as a portrait of the team's namesake. So I don't know if you can really argue that it's disparaging? I don't know. I'm still not entirely sure why Blackhawk's logo is bad but Washington's is ok. If someone would like to clear that up for me I'd love to hear it.
 
Cheers guys, I didn't realise the Skins owner was such a terrible person.
 
Everything said here is about former owners actually. The point of that being that there is a history that at least in theory should incline current ownership (and the NFL) towards avoiding this type of controversy with this particular franchise.

The current owner is a jerk, I think...but that has at least as much to do with the very poor management he provides the franchise as it does to do with this issue.
 
For the record, while the Washington club is the most heated example, in fact AIM activists regularly protest the Braves, Indians, Warriors, Seminoles, Fighting Illini, Chippewas, Mohicans, Shawnee, Delaware, Apaches, Fighting Sioux - basically any team associated with an Indian nickname.

In Cleveland there are annual protests by Native Americans outside the ballpark. They typically get some coverage on local news while they're here, and they are very clear that they're against the name of the club, not merely Chief Wahoo.
 
Cheers guys, I didn't realise the Skins owner was such a terrible person.



Hey!!!! Calling them the 'Skins' offends... well, everybody I guess :D .

Just teasing. He should change it just to get it over with... probably make more money with the new stuff.
I think probably being so rich makes him quite stubborn on the point tho.

Best regards, Greg
 
Hey Owen. Not only have a suffered with the 'chop' at Braves games many time... I have also witness Fla St games in person :cry: . The chant that goes with it is even worse.

'godawful' gave me a giggle this morning. :goodjob: Thanks.
 
For the record, while the Washington club is the most heated example, in fact AIM activists regularly protest the Braves, Indians, Warriors, Seminoles, Fighting Illini, Chippewas, Mohicans, Shawnee, Delaware, Apaches, Fighting Sioux - basically any team associated with an Indian nickname.

In Cleveland there are annual protests by Native Americans outside the ballpark. They typically get some coverage on local news while they're here, and they are very clear that they're against the name of the club, not merely Chief Wahoo.

Hm. Interesting. I'm not a Native American, and it's certainly not my place to deem for anybody whether or not these nicknames are offensive, but as I said, I view Seminoles/Illini/Chippewas/Mohicans/Shawnee/Delaware/Apaches/Sioux/etc. as no different than calling a team the Trojans/Spartans/Celtics/Irish/etc. They're just the names of historical groups of people. Braves/Warriors/etc. I view as no different than Centurions/Rangers/Cowboys/Pirates/Patriots/etc.

At any rate I don't think the Native American groups would have much of a case against any of these names (ignoring some of their objectionable logos). I don't think anybody could argue that these names are defamatory or slurs. A big part of the Washington suit was that Washington's nickname had long ago fallen out of favor as a commonly used nickname for Native Americans unlike Indian which, albeit a misnomer, is still a very widely used misnomer.
 
Hm. Interesting. I'm not a Native American, and it's certainly not my place to deem for anybody whether or not these nicknames are offensive, but as I said, I view Seminoles/Illini/Chippewas/Mohicans/Shawnee/Delaware/Apaches/Sioux/etc. as no different than calling a team the Trojans/Spartans/Celtics/Irish/etc. They're just the names of historical groups of people. Braves/Warriors/etc. I view as no different than Centurions/Rangers/Cowboys/Pirates/Patriots/etc.(I very much agree - Gf)

At any rate I don't think the Native American groups would have much of a case against any of these names (ignoring some of their objectionable logos). I don't think anybody could argue that these names are defamatory or slurs.(- yet they do) A big part of the Washington suit was that Washington's nickname had long ago fallen out of favor as a commonly used nickname for Native Americans unlike Indian which, albeit a misnomer, is still a very widely used misnomer.

Here's a local newspaper story. Native Americans protest the not just the images, but the actual names of the teams.

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- For the 20th year in a row, Native Americans and supporters will protest the use of the Cleveland Indians team name and the club's Chief Wahoo logo at early season home baseball games.

The Cleveland American Indian Movement will protest outside Progressive Field at the home opener Thursday against the Toronto Blue Jays. The game starts at 3:05 p.m.

The displays have become something of a tradition at the first games of the season as protesters try to gather support for their position.

The director of the Cleveland American Indian Movement, who goes only by the name "Sundance," said Native Americans have been protesting the ball club's name and mascot since the original AIM was formed in 1973.


IMHO, we name our teams mostly after animals (lLions, Tigers, Bears, Eagles), things (Rockets, Jets, Hurricanes, Cyclones) or peoples (Cowboys, Indians, Spartans, Vols) who are combative, strong, unrelenting, brave or indomitable; being representative of the competitive characteristics we'd like to see in our teams. We admire these symbols and names - but the Native Americans claim to believe it's not admiration, but ridicule.
 
Yeah, there are regular protests about the Indians logo. They aren't very big (surprise! Not a ton of Indians live near Cleveland), but they do exist. I also think that logo eventually gets phased out.

In college, Stanford, Dartmouth, and Miami (OH) changed their names to get rid of native-american imagery, with Miami (OH) being the most recent I believe (the 1990s?). Other schools had to get specific approval from local tribes to keep using them.

This explains why the Washington football team's current owner sucks: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/40063/the-cranky-redskins-fans-guide-to-dan-snyder
 
We admire these symbols and names - but the Native Americans claim to believe it's not admiration, but ridicule.

Which is why, by and large I disagree with them, because the difference between admiration and ridicule is pretty clear. However, in Washington the word they chose isn't the name of a courageous group, it is a term that was used in wartime to describe the enemy and has a history in direct opposition to admiration. It isn't even ridicule, it was a straight up slur, and insisting on continuing to use it just maintains the enmity it represented. It is equivalent to consulting the histories of the Indian wars to find out some nasty term they used for their enemies and changing the Dallas team's name to that instead of 'cowboys'. I think the Dallas Pale Skinned Devils has a ring to it, but I suspect most people would recognize it as being in very poor taste.
 
This country and the world is burning down and going to H*ll and people want to waste time and tax payer money due to a name and organization that has been around longer than most of us have been alive. This country needs to take off the liberal diaper and grow up, get over these hurt feelings and entitlement mentality. Fight a real fight, we need to get this country back on top as a world leader in manufacturing and economics.
 
This country and the world is burning down and going to H*ll and people want to waste time and tax payer money due to a name and organization that has been around longer than most of us have been alive. This country needs to take off the liberal diaper and grow up, get over these hurt feelings and entitlement mentality. Fight a real fight, we need to get this country back on top as a world leader in manufacturing and economics.

While the wording could be put... much better, I agree with the overall sentiment.

Sticks and stones and so on.
 
This country and the world is burning down and going to H*ll and people want to waste time and tax payer money due to a name and organization that has been around longer than most of us have been alive. This country needs to take off the liberal diaper and grow up, get over these hurt feelings and entitlement mentality. Fight a real fight, we need to get this country back on top as a world leader in manufacturing and economics.

Why are you posting about it instead of doing something more important about your country allegedly going to hell, then?
 
For the record, while the Washington club is the most heated example, in fact AIM activists regularly protest the Braves, Indians, Warriors, Seminoles, Fighting Illini, Chippewas, Mohicans, Shawnee, Delaware, Apaches, Fighting Sioux - basically any team associated with an Indian nickname.

In Cleveland there are annual protests by Native Americans outside the ballpark. They typically get some coverage on local news while they're here, and they are very clear that they're against the name of the club, not merely Chief Wahoo.

I don't see how just being associated with Indians can be considered offensive. How is it different from the Celtics, or the Spartans, etc etc?

People use Indian names for teams to allude to their bravery and fighting spirit. How's that derogatory?
 
I don't see how just being associated with Indians can be considered offensive. How is it different from the Celtics, or the Spartans, etc etc?

People use Indian names for teams to allude to their bravery and fighting spirit. How's that derogatory?

Presumably because they consider it a continuation of the exploitation of the Native American man. White people come in, take their land, massacre their men, rape and then eradicate their women, shuffle the survivors into uninhabitable land, declare them citizens of a new country without provided any kind of assistance or representation, and then have the audacity to make money hand over fist based by playing up "legacy" and "bravery" of those who were unceremoniously slaughtered without giving any of that money back to those who died for that legacy.

Yeah it's kind of terrible.
 
I don't see how just being associated with Indians can be considered offensive. How is it different from the Celtics, or the Spartans, etc etc?

People use Indian names for teams to allude to their bravery and fighting spirit. How's that derogatory?

The difference is the history.

Americans have no history with Spartans or Celtics. They predate the US. Native Americans are the enemy who was pretty much eradicated by the US. The Anglo-Saxons of the British Isles have history with the Celts, and they don't name teams the Celtics. If they did they would have a hard time supporting a claim that it was out of admiration.

Once again, to me names like 'Braves' could be passed off this way, since that's just a word that identified the fighting men from non-combatants; similar to 'soldier'. But 'redskin' was commonly used as a derogatory slur during the Indian wars. Is it really a surprise that the former enemy objects to its continued use?
 
So (Owen), not actually derogatory or racist. You seem to be saying it's an unfair(?) continued economic exploitation.

Could, say, the Greeks (MSU Spartans) sue us for the same unfair copyright infringement?
 
Presumably because they consider it a continuation of the exploitation of the Native American man. White people come in, take their land, massacre their men, rape and then eradicate their women, shuffle the survivors into uninhabitable land, declare them citizens of a new country without provided any kind of assistance or representation, and then have the audacity to make money hand over fist based by playing up "legacy" and "bravery" of those who were unceremoniously slaughtered without giving any of that money back to those who died for that legacy.

Yeah it's kind of terrible.

The difference is the history.

Americans have no history with Spartans or Celtics. They predate the US. Native Americans are the enemy who was pretty much eradicated by the US. The Anglo-Saxons of the British Isles have history with the Celts, and they don't name teams the Celtics. If they did they would have a hard time supporting a claim that it was out of admiration.

Once again, to me names like 'Braves' could be passed off this way, since that's just a word that identified the fighting men from non-combatants; similar to 'soldier'. But 'redskin' was commonly used as a derogatory slur during the Indian wars. Is it really a surprise that the former enemy objects to its continued use?

I don't think anyone would be offended if an English team was named Celtic (there's a Scottish team with that name, BTW), or if an Italian team was named "Gauls", or whatever. And I don't think most American Indians are offended by those names either, only a small (if hysteric) minority.

I think when people name their teams after Indian tribes they are paying homage, and also identifying the Indians as "true Americans".

Also, there's no one left to "give money" to. It's not like present Indians were slaughtered by the government.
 
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