1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Watch the Reloads

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by superslug, May 1, 2005.

  1. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,676
    Location:
    mostly lurking
    Hmm, quite a quandary...

    I haven't had any games rejected due to reload counts, but I think 1 hour is way to high. This is especially true for some of the longer style games like milking and 100K.

    I started playing HOF games as quick tiny conquests when I had less than an hour available to play GOTM. Half of my tiny conquests probably had a reload rate of 0 and the other half a count of 1 (if I used Mapfinder). I would play when I gave the baby a bottle.

    If I had to pick a time I would say 15 minutes as that is how long it take my boy to finish a bottle these days.

    I think you need to consider more criteria when excluding games. The 1000BC reload count could be a relatively strict time limit/load count. The games that get bogged down in micro management near the end we should allow to have higher reload counts.

    Even now, I play my HOF games when I don't think I have time for GOTM turn or two. It will now take me months to find additional 1 hour increments to finish some of the larger map games I will need for the quartermaster's challenge. Maybe I should just forget about the QC as my reload count on a huge map is going to be huge as all I'll have time to do is MM the builds and have to save the game.
     
  2. Svar

    Svar King

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2003
    Messages:
    615
    Location:
    China Lake, Ca
    This would be a good time for other HOF Players' opinions on this subject to be heard.....Thanks killercane.


    OK, here is my mode of operation. I start many games that look promising and play them to 1000 BC then save. Later the more promising 1000 BC saves are played to 10 AD then saved. There are no intermediate saves and reloads unless something unusual happens like a power outage (very rare) or a CTD when I hit the F1 or F3 keys (again very rare before 1000 AD but can be a problem after when there are hundreds of units moving).

    I looked at a random sample of 1000 BC saves from a recent large world game and a recent huge world game. In each case I only looked at 10 samples in each case but the trend is there.

    In the large world case the average time to the 1000 BC save was 63.4 minutes with only 3 games under 60 minutes. The quickest game was completed in 48 minutes and the longest game took 89 minutes. The quickest game was probably very easy to position new cities so it went very fast, the longest game probably had me break for dinner.

    In the huge world case the average time to the 1000 BC save was 1 hour and 34.4 minutes with only 1 game under 60 minutes at 59 minutes. There were two very quick games at 59 and 60 minutes respectively that probably had very obvious city locations. There was also a game that lasted 2 hours and 31 minutes so I probably got sleepy and took a nap.

    There were six large world games that had a playing time within 4 minutes of the average so that looks very representative. In the huge world game data set there were six games that were within 12 minutes of the average so while not as good as the large world game data set still representative of my personal playing style.

    I can see no reason to save and reload a game between 4000 BC and 1000 BC, it only takes an hour to an hour and a half to play. After 1000 BC it can take me 3 to 4 hours to get to 10 AD but I only play those segments when I have that block of time available. After 10 AD I tend to play for as much as 10 hours at a stretch but can see where most people don't have that kind of time to devote to playing computer games.

    I think 1 hour is very reasonable as long as I still get to submit my rare games that were saved at 1000 BC in less than 1 hour. BTW when I play smaller than large worlds even though I save at 1000 BC the reload will usually be from much later like 500 BC because I don't start as many games at those sizes.
     
  3. Tone

    Tone Deity Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    4,548
    Location:
    Singapore
    I agree with this but I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement. (slug?)

    I usually get to 1000BC with possibly one save after mapfinder. I am currently trying to do a 100K game (I couldn't face this one until a reasonable break after finishing SGOTM6!) and although the end is in sight, it's not going to be very exciting unless the AI attacks me. I'm just scrolling through the cities each turn mm-ing and looking for potential rushes, checking the domination limit is not at risk and managing the cash flow and I can't take too much of this in a single stretch. :sleep:

    I do agree that some basic criteria need to be laid down but perhaps an occasional 30-45 minute session in a game that otherwise has a number of 2+ hour times is not suspicious, is it? Perhaps an average session time of at least an hour with just a couple of short ones could be acceptable. After all, sometimes something unexpected happens in a game that makes me want to stop and mull over the options at hand. If this means that it happens 30 minutes into a new session I either have to make a decision then or leave the game running for another half an hour before saving, even though I have no intention of returning to the game before the next session!

    The odd short session is bound to happen anyway if the game freezes and I have to reload from autosave. What do we do if that happens? (slightly off topic: I have had this happen three times recently when I have eliminated a civ and clicked on What's The Big Picture-I don't risk this anymore and save straight after the action!)

    BTW I'm glad that it's not just me that has fallen asleep by the computer but I'm clearly not in the elite class as I can't actually play in my sleep. Yet again moonsinger sets standards that I can only dream of!
     
  4. Darkness

    Darkness Shadow creature

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Messages:
    6,755
    Location:
    Rotterdam, the Netherlands
    100% agreeing with the minimum 1-hour playing session rule.
    I also can not play (not very often anyway) longer sessions, due to PBEM commitments (which I want to play as soon as they arrive in my mailbox, as it is simply much more interesting to see what tactics a human comes up with. AIs are so predictable :( ) and RL, but so far I haven't had any games rejected for both the COTM and the HOF (though I have no idea if I'm close to the minimum session line for these games, but so far I've had no complaints), so IMHO the one-hour rule should be doable.

    A line has to be drawn somewhere, and drawing that line at the same point as the C/GOTM seems logical and clear to me.
    I know that for some players the lack of a submission deadline for HoF games is very important, but IMHO that has nothing to do with the one-hour rule. The one-hour rule doesn't change the fact that it doesn't matter if you submit your game tomorrow or at the end of, say, august....
     
  5. zerksees

    zerksees in remission

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    1,645
    Location:
    Wadsworth Ohio USA
    Random thoughts:

    I am very confident the one hour minimum is not a problem for me!

    Seems to me that 45 minutes would probably weed out the lion's share of the reloading.

    I was unhappy when some of my older 2050 spaceship or domination wins were unceremnoniously lumped into the histographic category because they were 2050 wins, but I got over it. I wanted to quit the HOF but I am too addicted. I just made a mental adjustment. For me the QC will be reached next update, only delayed a couple months.

    It shall be interesting to see if the number of submissions drops off. That will tell us how much of a "problem" the one hour rule creates.


    Forgive the dumb question: Is this something I can check myself before submitting?
     
  6. Svar

    Svar King

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2003
    Messages:
    615
    Location:
    China Lake, Ca
    CRpMapStat records this when you check a save.
     
  7. BlackBetsy

    BlackBetsy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    89
    Here's a thought - what if the calculation took account for the reload for MapFinder and 1 other "free reload" at the beginning of the game if you want to save any start where you pop a settler or get an SGL and want to save those games for later. It seems to me to be a more realistic calculation.

    So the calculation could go:

    Minutes played / (# of reloads - 2)

    If the calculation results in a number greater than 60, it could be excluded.
     
  8. Tone

    Tone Deity Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    4,548
    Location:
    Singapore
    Off topic

    So I get home, load up for a quick 1 hour play before tonight's football and can you guess what happens on turn 1? I think that I'm happy about the DoW that comes from Korea as it's made the game a little bit more interesting but I'll be very careful what I say in the forum from now on. The AI hasn't got Espionage but they must have got to hear about this somehow :)
     
  9. Moonsinger

    Moonsinger Settler Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    4,374
    Location:
    Iowa
    For those that play Civ3 on a Pentium II 266MHz, the time it takes them to make one turn would usually be equal to the time it takes people with a fast machine to move at least a dozen turns; therefore, we can't possibly use "Minutes Played" as part of any calculation!;)

    Btw, you can save the game as many times as you like (before and after you pop that settler or whenever), but just don't reload before you pop a settler because some people may be questioning your honor - even when they don't say it out loud - in the back of their minds they are probably wondering if you have reloaded for that free settler.

    My advice to you, if you are shooting for the top slot, always take extra steps to protect yourself. For example, I usually leave the games running while I'm taking a short break for talking a bath or making dinners. Every few hours, I would get up and do something else (because if I look at the monitor for too long, I would have red eyes). Of course, I would leave the game running during those times. Beside, it would take forever to reload a game anyway. On a huge map, it probably takes my system like 3 minutes to load the game; therefore, it's best to keep Civ3 running during those short breaks.

    I also usually stop the game at an unimportant or uneventful turn. For example, it would be a bad idea to stop before popping the hut (like I said before, if you reload the next time and happen to get a free settler - someone may have a hard time believing in your luck). It's also a bad idea to stop before a major trading session. If I'm really tired and think that I probably won't be able to bargain for the best deals, I usually just leave the game running and take a nap. That's just how I play my games. It's one of many habits I picked up when I was playing the GOTM. I'm sure SirPleb and other top players also follow a similar practice.
     
  10. superslug

    superslug Still hatin' on Khan Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2003
    Messages:
    11,365
    Location:
    The Farm
    I've been reviewing the database thoroughly, and it looks like that a minimum of 30 minutes per session would cover 90%+ of the included games. Would that be an acceptable standard for average playsessions to everyone?
     
  11. Mistfit

    Mistfit Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2004
    Messages:
    3,798
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    How about a poll? I personally do not see a reason to go shorter than 1 hour but that is just my playstyle.
     
  12. denyd

    denyd Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2001
    Messages:
    6,608
    Location:
    Chino Hills, CA
    30 minutes seems fine, though based on some of the quick finishes in the tiny domination/conquest entries, that is an entire game :D
     
  13. Moonsinger

    Moonsinger Settler Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    4,374
    Location:
    Iowa
    For me, I usually don't go shorter than 4 hours per session; therefore, whatever number you guys come up with is fine with me. Like EMan, I trust that everyone here are honorable; therefore, (to be perfectly honest) even if you decide to go with 1 minute per session, that's fine with me too.:)

    Btw, Congratulation on your 5000 posts, Slug! [party]
     
  14. Tone

    Tone Deity Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    4,548
    Location:
    Singapore
    30 mins...1 hour...whatever. Just as long as the rules can be bent occasionally when the game crashes.
     
  15. EMan

    EMan HOFer: Milk-Cow?

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,894
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Denver/Phoenix Born:Hampton Court
    My understanding is that if the game crashes (and there is some combination of keys[?] that will cause the game to exit instantly....'cos I push 'em occasionally!) OR if the Domination Limit is inadvertently exceeded, you ARE permitted to Reload, even it's from the same file a second time!? :)

    @'slug (Or should I say Papa): You're a very reasonable fellow, so whatever you come up with is what we'll all HAPPILY go with.........You KNOW that!

    30 min average is much more palatable to me than 1 hour........I hate to leave the game running unless I'm actually playing it!......Never have noticed any additional turns while sleeping! :lol:
    (Although, if I'm in that "<10%" Reload Group, please PM me.)

    Also, I forgot to add my congratulations to you on your "5000th Post"......Way to Go 'slug! :goodjob:

    5000 perhaps should be a Magic Number for Official Moderator Status Re-consideration!? ;)
     
  16. Sandman2003

    Sandman2003 Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    597
    Location:
    Australia
    ... or when the computer crashes and takes the game with it, which does happen to me on accassion as well (thanks Mr G....).

    I personnally am easy with whatever you wish to go with Mr 'Slug. My own sessions typically are much longer than an hour. I can't bring myself to even open the game if I haven't got at least an hour, because it takes me awhile to refamiliarise myself with the game. Like Ms MS I leave the game running during short interruptions.
     
  17. superslug

    superslug Still hatin' on Khan Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2003
    Messages:
    11,365
    Location:
    The Farm
    If the crash reload is from the same turn, the permission is virtually automatic. This is why I encourage everyone to use CRpSuite and it's autosav storage feature.

    I appreciate the compliment, but please don't put me on a pedestal. You can see for yourself from my HOF scores that I'm quite scared of heights.
     
  18. WillowBrook

    WillowBrook Lurker

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    3,232
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    My vote may not be worth much as I've never submitted a HOF game (though if time permits this summer, I hope to submit several), but this seems fair:
    - minimum 30 minutes per session
    - minimum average session length of 1 hour (perhaps excluding 1 or 2 reloads as others have suggested)
     
  19. Tone

    Tone Deity Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    4,548
    Location:
    Singapore
    But my understanding is that this would count as a reload and therefore as a new seesion. If the crash happens just 20 minutes into a new session, the whole game will become invalid as you will eventually submit a game with a session less than 1 hour/ 30 minutes / whatever the minimum time becomes. If it doesn't count as a new session when the game is reloaded then I'm fine with the new proposals. However if what I'm saying is correct, then we need to consider rules that give a little flexibility in this respect so that computer/game crashes, blown fuses, power cuts, etc can not invalidate a game from the HoF. That is why I've made my proposal.

    [QUOTE='slug]If the crash reload is from the same turn, the permission is virtually automatic. This is why I encourage everyone to use CRpSuite and it's autosav storage feature.[/QUOTE]Is this different from loading from the auto save files. If so is there a different way of loading them?
     
  20. Mistfit

    Mistfit Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2004
    Messages:
    3,798
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Sluggo~ are you saying that if there is any portion of the game where there is a reload under 1 hour you will tank the game? This to me seems a bit harsh. If that is the case I agree it should be shortened. If what you are looking for is an average I have no problem with the 1 hour.
     

Share This Page