We are all half banana!

I'm not angry, I'm amused.

The thing that is amusing is that the science faithful wander around happily contented that "we one day will figure out everything" while the people actually doing the science accept that they have pretty well proven that they aren't going to.

That's why I talk about science as religion so much. The parallels are striking.

Over here we have the priest in the back room of the church who is well aware of the challenges of faith, who then steps out in front of a congregation of people that view him as the binding agent that gets them through their own challenges.

Over there we have the scientist who is face to face with the experimentally derived limitations of science, who is counted on by the science faithful to "work it all out someday" and put it in a thirty second pop science video for them.

It's hysterical.

Has anyone here said they believe we once will figure out everything?
What if the "unknowability" of this bell-business is a part of "the whole known"?
And how is this amusing?

By the way "it couldn't be anything" implies that you have some knowledge of the limitations placed on "that which must exist outside of reality in order for reality to function as it does." Please share your source of this knowledge.

I know what Odin is. He is described in certain ways. Odin is known, so to say. And as it turns out, not only does he not explain quantum physics, he doesn't even fit in the macroscopic world we experience.

And another one: it's not me. I am not making this work.

See, I just excluded two options, therefore, it can't be anything.
 
I know what Odin is. He is described in certain ways. Odin is known, so to say. And as it turns out, not only does he not explain quantum physics, he doesn't even fit in the macroscopic world we experience.

And another one: it's not me. I am not making this work.

See, I just excluded two options, therefore, it can't be anything.

Well, here's a couple of interesting things.

Odin, with attendant pantheon, is an anthropomorphic "naming" of the incomprehensible. While that naming makes "Odin known, so to say," it isn't a knowledge, it is just a name...sort of a shorthand...just like any other naming of the incomprehensible is, whether that name is anthropomorphic or not. So to say "it can't be Odin" is just a separation of the anthropomorphic name from what it was originally applied to. The incomprehensible that was given that name could be said to be the same incomprehensible that makes quantum mechanics work, since "incomprehensible" is just a more erudite sounding naming anyway.

Second interesting thing is that if you took the right apparatus in a properly designed experiment you in fact could be "the observer that makes quantum mechanics work." One of the really difficult things for me to wrap my own mind around is that if two identical particles are created, and you measured one in some way, which produces information regarding the identical particle that is now known without disruptive measurement, it doesn't have to be you that observes that in the other particle to make the verification. It could be me, or any other experimenter.

So, the observation is done by some incomprehensible connected to/within/part of or otherwise associated with you, which apparently is held in common by all possible observers. Whatever the incomprehensible is, while it is not you, per se, it is definitely intimately associated with you. With us. Otherwise quantum mechanics, which is proven to be an accurate predictor of objective reality, can't work the way it does.

Quantum mechanics is actually subjective, with an incomprehensible observer somewhere outside of objective reality. The name attached is always inadequate, so it makes no difference if you want to use "the mighty eye of science" and someone else wants to use "Odin" and someone else uses some other gang of letters. It also makes no difference if someone believes they can "speak to" the incomprehensible and someone else believes that no one can, because unless you can catch a bus tour of outside of objective reality there is no information available to prove or disprove either one.
 
You're wrong.

Also, I'm tired of you ignoring the questions that you can't easily answer. I still don't get what you are trying to communicate.
 
You're wrong.

Also, I'm tired of you ignoring the questions that you can't easily answer. I still don't get what you are trying to communicate.

Why would you want to get it? As you just pointed out, it's wrong for you.

If you want me to give easy answers, ask easy questions.
 
It's wrong for me? What does that mean?
And I'm not saying I want easy answers, but that you are ignoring harder questions.
 
It's wrong for me? What does that mean?
And I'm not saying I want easy answers, but that you are ignoring harder questions.

I dunno what it means, you were the one who boiled it down at a basic statement of "you're wrong". Since that wasn't very specific I didn't really know what you were disagreeing with and figured we were done.

Any question about what the unknown really is I am not answering, but not ignoring. I just acknowledge that I have no answer to give you. Is the unknown "Odin"? Beats me, I don't know. Is the unknown sentient? Does it have an intent? Is it kindly, malicious, comparable to some sort of cheese? I don't know.

I know, to some extent, where what is known ends, and I have studied the theorems and proofs that that end is not a "beyond here is unexplored", it is a barrier that physics genuinely demonstrates that physics cannot cross.

I also know that the number of people who are willing to claim knowledge beyond that barrier is enormous. People who have had spiritual experiences "know" stuff about it. People who believe that objective reality is all encompassing (despite physics having proofs that show it is not) "know" there is nothing there. Many of these people claim to be open minded while that is obviously not the case.

Other than the fact that I am overflowing with confidence that whoever I talk to also does not know, I am open minded about it. But being confident that whoever tries to tell me something does not know puts me frequently at odds with people who think "open minded" means willing to believe whatever they do. Since I don't know, I am always willing to credit their wildest guess as possibly correct...even if their guess is a big guy made of cloud or an automated scoreboard that just records data about particles.
 
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