Wealth doesn't trickle down.

[Crezth]

i think everyone so far is missing the point that wealth does trickle down to the poor, lifting them up to the middle class... the theory is sound, just ask the Chinese how Americas wealth has trickled down to them, how it boosts the economy, lowers unemployment and gives everyone a cell phone... its a win/win situation between America's rich and China's poor

I really hope you're joking. The 200 million-or-so migrant workers live in horrifying conditions. Large, crowded slums, often without plumbing or electricity. Safety standards? Close to none. Recourse? Not even a shadow.

 

[Borachio]

Oh yes, and let's not forget that wealthy people like to employ people to mow the law, do their laundry, hoover the carpets, drive their cars, raise their children, fight their wars.

Yup, I'm all in favour of trickle down. Not.

 

[holy king]

The problem is that if workers consume no more than subsistence, or subsistence for them and their dependents, then the rate of unemployment will be very high and get forever worse, because productivity does not stay stagnant over time.

three words: reduce work hours.

 

[Cutlass]

three words: reduce work hours.

That has both positives and negatives. If you reduce work hours without raising hourly pay, then you just reduce the income of one group to allow income for another. So one way or another you don't gain anything without raising pay.

 

[holy king]

yeah, i thought that goes without saying.
i mean if you produce the same amount of goods in less time, in the end there's the same amount of goods to spread, isnt there?

 

[Cutlass]

Sure. But what about people who want to work more and buy more goods? If you cut hours while maintaining purchasing power, then total production is stagnant and no one really gets better off except in more leisure time. Time where they can't really do anything, because they don't have any more money to do things with.

The main problem is that wages do not rise with productivity. The system cannot stay stable like that. Now the reason that happens is because the power relationship between the wealthy and labor is so skewed towards the wealthy that labor has no bargaining power. And government supports the wealthy at the expense of labor.

 

[Borachio]

Time where they can't really do anything, because they don't have any more money to do things with.

Plainly they can't do things that require loads of money. But there are many activities, like spending time with family and children, that really do not cost much at all.

 

[Old Hippy]

I really hope you're joking. The 200 million-or-so migrant workers live in horrifying conditions. Large, crowded slums, often without plumbing or electricity. Safety standards? Close to none. Recourse? Not even a shadow.

well more the 300 million middle class in china... thanks to US wealth and investment...

heck even my money comes from US wealth investment in Australian jobs and infrastructure... (some 250+ billion just on our gas resources)

yep, trickle down from wealthy Americans creates some of the most in demand employment... for Australians

don't know if a pattern is emerging here.... is it that trickle down works or ....

 

[Cutlass]

Plainly they can't do things that require loads of money. But there are many activities, like spending time with family and children, that really do not cost much at all.

There are activities that cost little to know money. But those are often not the greatest of choices. And life can get boring.

 

[Borachio]

Hmmm. Weell, life can get boring with large expenditures too. But I think it a sound rule that children want your time more than your money.

 

[Cutlass]

And what of people who don't have children? You can't find a one size fits all situation here.

 

[holy king]

Sure. But what about people who want to work more and buy more goods?

what about people who want to freck angie dickinson on mars?

 

[Traitorfish]

well more the 300 million middle class in china

Wait, what?

The main problem is that wages do not rise with productivity. The system cannot stay stable like that. Now the reason that happens is because the power relationship between the wealthy and labor is so skewed towards the wealthy that labor has no bargaining power. And government supports the wealthy at the expense of labor.

If you're not careful you're going to start sounding like me.

 

[Borachio]

And what of people who don't have children? You can't find a one size fits all situation here.

Those who don't have children can spend time with other people's (not particularly well-indicated) or with old people who don't see anyone from one day to the next. Or spend time sitting on the porch contemplating the meaning of life, the universe and everything.

The possibilities are truly endless - once you can break away from the societal conditioning that says you must spend money in order to amuse yourself.

 

[Traitorfish]

It might be worth remembering that a figure so moderate as Keynes was able to predict in 1930 that we'd be working a 15-hour week by now; it's not an eccentric utopia of the unrepentant left. I don't think it's really satisfactory to write off what was a very widely held expectation with a few glib comments about how "life gets boring". (And as my mother always told me, "only boring people get bored". )

 

[Borachio]

Of course a lot depends on how you define work. If it's something you must do, and that you detest, for hours on end (a minimum of 1/3 of your entire existence) to feed yourself, then it's a really hateful institution. And it is for the majority of people.

If, on the other hand, work is what you take seriously and derive your sense of self-worth from, then it is entirely laudable. And is something you would do, paid or not.

 

[Lone Wolf]

It might be worth remembering that a figure so moderate as Keynes was able to predict in 1930 that we'd be working a 15-hour week by now; it's not an eccentric utopia of the unrepentant left.

15-hour working week? What a lazy socialist! 15-hour work day is what people need to develop the economy and build character

 

[Borachio]

But we've done it. Developed the economy and our characters. What's not to like?

I used to work 80 hours a week. Minimum. Didn't build my character one little bit. It knackered it.

 

[Old Hippy]

Wait, what?

a US view...
http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/25/news/economy/china-middle-class/index.htm

Chinese view...
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2011-08/05/content_13056148.htm

700 million by 2020....?
http://shanghaiist.com/2010/07/26/chinas_middle_class_will_reach_700.php

of course one should go with the more proletariat meaning of middle class, rather than the more bourgeois western meaning

 

[JollyRoger]

what about people who want to freck angie dickinson on mars?

They have to survive a cagefight with Newt Gingrich for the honor.