Were Ancient Macedonians Greek?

[Domen]

Soon after Slavic invation, Byzantium conquered the area and incorporated it, giving an END to Slavic occupation.

So what? By occupation I meant occupation by people. Slavic people continued to live there, they were the majority of population.

Slavs also served in huge numbers in Byzantine armies. And later the area was once again reconquered from Byzantine control:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Empire



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Empire



It was also out of Byzantine control during some other (non-imperial) stages of Serbian statehood and of Bulgarian statehood.

 

[Franklin Waters]

Yes they came as occupiers 1500 years ago.

Yet they didn't occupied the area for 1500 years as you previously said.
Do not forget what is known as "the Christianized Roman Empire of the Greeks" and its 1000 years of reign !!!
It got in Greek hands...

English people also came to England as occupiers. Entire England should be returned back to Wales, I guess.

I don't give a dime for what they do in England.

No? So what happened with them? Did you exterminate all of them?

There's no Slavic minority in Greece, unless one can call minority a group of less than 2000 people... which none can!!
Do not forget EU which is always watching. (You think if there was such case, FYROM wouldn't made the best out of this through EU??? THEY CAN'T coz there is no such case of Slavic -or "macedonian" as they self-declare it- minority!!!)

What happened to the Slavs, is same as what happened to the Greeks.
It is known as "EXCHANGE OF POPULATION" which follows wars between neighbors.

BTW - we don't know this, because Greek population censuses don't count minorities, except for Muslim Turks.

Greece don't count minorities?? Is this a JOKE?
Wrong... You're forgetting EU, and generally you present things as fitting you my friend.

You think if there was such case, FYROM wouldn't made the best out of this through EU??? THEY CAN'T coz there is no such case of Slavic -or "macedonian" as they self-declare it- minority!!!

I don't see why you don't get it... AGAIN;
In Greece there's a small muslim minority. Not minority of turks.
Unless one can call the Greeks, the Irish, the Italians inhabidants of the U.S. of America, minorities... which none can !!

Your government calls them Turks. I can see that you are even more nationalistic than Greek government. Nice...

This is faulse, untrue and (no offense) shows desparation and lack of arguments. Greece does not has a nationalistic administration.
If you were informed on international politics, you would know that. Yet you obviously are not...

Also I personally AM NOT a nationalist.

Since when one by telling the truth, quoting AND COMPARING with the international UN, EU, USA, etc status quo, he's becoming a nationalist ??????????
You're playing again with words and claim things that not only come out of the blue, but you don't seem to know that well (if not at all...).

Greece is calling the muslims "GREEKS".
I don't see where you can see any nationalism in that...

If it didn't called them Greeks, then it would nationalistic. Getting there??

So you can call Greeks in Macedonia a minority, but you can't call Slavs in Greece a minority ???

Better stop playing with words. As I told you;
There's no Slavic minority in Greece, unless one can call minority a group of less than 2000 people... which none can!!
Do not forget EU which is always watching.
You think if there was such case, FYROM wouldn't made the best out of this through EU??? THEY CAN'T coz there is no such case of Slavic -or "macedonian" as they self-declare it- minority!!!

And again;
What happened to the Slavs, is same as what happened to the Greeks.
It is known as "EXCHANGE OF POPULATION" which follows wars between neighbors.

The USA is an immigration-based European "offshoot" post-colonial country in the New World.

This is your analysis, with which EACH AND EVERY AMERICAN would NEVER agree.

Perhaps you wanna talk in Australian terms????

 

[Franklin Waters]

So what? By occupation I meant occupation by people. Slavic people continued to live there, they were the majority of population.

"So what??"
The Slavs were NOT native, not the indigenous people of this area.

The Slavs migrated there as occupiers, and hence;
1. the ancestors of the nowadays self-declared "Macedonians", they were NO MACEDONIANS
2. the indigenous people of this area had EVERY RIGHT to claim this area back

Majority or not it's IRRELATIVE.

Slavs also served in huge numbers in Byzantine armies. And later the area was once again reconquered from Byzantine control

Many others did that. This does not making them other than Slavs.

 

[Sitalkas]

Spoiler :

Europe around 220 BC.


See where the Slavs live?

Good, now see far to the south.

There, the Greeks live. Not any Slavic tribe or something.

Greeks and Slavs shared no common ground till very later. There is no way Macedonians are Slavs and it is preposterous to claim it.

Enough of these nonsense

 

[Tahuti]

Spoiler :

Europe around 220 BC.


See where the Slavs live?

Good, now see far to the south.

There, the Greeks live. Not any Slavic tribe or something.

Greeks and Slavs shared no common ground till very later. There is no way Macedonians are Slavs and it is preposterous to claim it.

Enough of these nonsense

I'm sure the majority of Germans and Dutch love to be 'reminded' of being a Gaul. Also, Domen might be one as well.

 

[Domen]

Interesting opinion:

No, modern Macedonia is not ancient Macedon, but the association between the indigenous people of the land of Macedonia and the LAND is very real, and not fictional in the least. That includes the land that modern Greece acquired in 1913, through bloody conquest and genocide. Indeed, that is what the political dispute is really about, a manifestation of deep-seated Greek xenophobia and ethnic hatred, based on hysterical fears that it will lose the ill-gotten gains of the Balkan Wars. The dispute is also about a long-suffering, colonized people, tasting freedom for the first time, and exerting that freedom. As an American, you should have some respect for that at least, considering the great leaders of American history and their commitment to independence and liberty. As for positing a blood / DNA connection to ancient peoples, I understand your concern, it’s definitely a stretch, and modern Macedonians and Greeks probably have as much a claim to that tenuous bloodline as Iraqis do. But ultimately, it is besides the point, and a symptom of the conflict, not a cause.

As for jingoism, the definition of that word is extreme nationalism which takes the form of hostile foreign policy. In that respect, the Republic of Macedonia is utterly innocent and the “Former Ottoman Possession of Yunanistan” is utterly guilty. Macedonia poses absolutely no threat to Greece, and since 1991, it has bent over backwards trying to appease the never-ending list of Greek demands. But what the world doesn’t understand is that the Greek government is only interested in Macedonia’s ultimate destruction, and to complete the ethnic cleansing process against all of Greece’s many domestic ethnic minorities, including the Macedonians in places like Kostur (Kastoria), Lerin (Florina) and Voden (Edessa).

The Macedonians of the independent republic are not trying to re-define the identity of a foreign country, destabilize it, impoverish it, exert illegal embargoes or political blackmail against it, but Greece has been doing all of those things, in hopes that it can finish the job that murderers like Karavangelis, Melas, Metaxas, etc. started when they tried to ethnically cleanse Macedonia of its indigenous people. Nowadays, the Greek Army is no longer using napalm on Macedonian civilians like in the 40s, but the bloodymindedness is no different. The attitude of racial superiority is a disease, and Greek society must confront it sooner or later.

You and other casual observers can say things like “I find that association disturbing”, but no one is disturbed, it seems, that the Greek government is intentionally and “successfully” trying to cause harm to its neighbor. What a success! By the way, did you know that my relatives who live in northern Greece today live in a police state? Did you know that their language, religion and identity is outlawed? Hellenic Democracy is a contradiction in terms, be grateful that you live in a free country called USA, it is a blessing.

History is interesting, and I can appreciate that you are a history enthusiast, but your post is not about history, it is about politics. The political reality of the present, and the future of the region, is much more important than the protestations of Professor Miller and his band of merry men, because people’s lives are at stake. This is no game, but it is a remnant of Greece’s fascist 20th century history, and a hopelessly corrupt, bankrupt government that strategically whips the Greek people into a frenzy whenever anyone challenges their national myths, including the illusion that Greece is an “ethnically pure state”.

I encourage all Americans will stand up for liberty and freedom, and to help Macedonia, not play into the hands of a Greek government which has lost its senses, and uses “history” as a weapon.

As a sovereign nation, Macedonia has every right to express itself as it wishes, without asking a foreign nation for permission. The incredible hostility of the Greek government’s response is completely out of line. The ethnic Macedonian nation originates in all of Macedonian territory, including that which Greece acquired for the first time in history in 1913, after which thousands of them were executed or forcible exiled from the own land. History does not begin in 1913! I agree that the connection between any people and any other people that precede them by a few thousand years is going to be slim, but whatever connection the modern Greeks have to the ancient Hellenes is no less tenuous. Until a few centuries ago, modern day Greeks referred to themselves as Romii, and spoke either Albanian or Turkish as their mother tongue. Further, the idea that Greece is justified in blocking Macedonia’s entry into NATO, the EU etc., and destabilizing the region as a result, over this dispute is utterly immoral and incredibly narrow-minded, considering that we live in the 21st Century, and there is much more at stake than academic disputes over history.

http://indianajen.com/2011/06/14/ma...nder-statue-in-spite-of-protests-from-greece/

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yunanistan

 

[Louis XXIV]

Personally, not only do I agree with the idea that the people who live there have associated with Macedonia for quite a long time, I don't think it's Greece's business either way. But that's not really a history debate, it's a political debate.

 

[Domen]

There's no Slavic minority in Greece

According to Human Rights Watch's report titled "Denying Ethnic Identity. The Macedonians of Greece", the last Greek census which counted ethnic minorities was in 1951:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/greece/greece945.pdf

Since 1951 Greece didn't publish any official data on how many Non-Greek citizens it has. According to this link in 1992 in Florina Region alone, 65% of inhabitants were Slavic.

According to Anti-Defamation League, Greece is also the most antisemitic country in Europe (even though since 1945 they no longer have any Jews in their country):

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/1.591841

In Salonica, capital of Aegean Macedonia, Jews were since 1500 AD the most numerous ethnic group, while neighbouring villages were inhabited mostly by Slavs since 600 AD.

After Nazi Germany conquered Greece in 1941, many Good Greeks cooperated with Germans in cleansing their Ancient Homeland from Slavic and Jewish "occupiers".

In recent 2014 European elections in Greece, a neo-Nazi party Golden Down received almost 10% of all votes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_debt_crisis_timeline#The_elections_of_the_crisis

Golden Down is anti-Turkish, anti-Slavic, anti-Albanian, anti-Jewish, ani-American, anti-EU and so on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(political_party)#Allegations_of_Nazism

In January 2013, a group of Golden Dawn supporters attacked the car of Turkish consul-general Osman İlhan Şener in Komotini during an anti-Turkey protest. The party members also insulted Atatürk during the attack.[149]

Golden Dawn promotes a hardline stance on the Macedonia naming dispute, rejecting any compromise solution that would include the term Macedonia in the name of the former Yugoslav republic.[150] Mihaloliakos has also called for the "liberation" of Northern Epirus, which is today part of southern Albania, has a Greek minority and is claimed by Greek irredentists. Golden Dawn and its Cypriot counterpart ELAM support enosis, the annexation of Cyprus by Greece.

Election advertisements for Golden Dawn have depicted the burning of U.S. and Israeli flags, a reflection of the party's strong anti-American and anti-Zionist position.[151] Golden Dawn is also staunchly eurosceptic, opposing Greece's participation in the European Union and the eurozone.[152][153]

Maybe Northern Epirus has a Greek minority, but Attica - including Athens itself - used to have an Albanian MAJORITY in not such a distant past...

==============================

Areas in Aegean Macedonia from which large part of local Macedonians were deported, were settled by immigrants from Asia Minor:

The Slavs were NOT native, not the indigenous people of this area.

They lived there for 1400 years, that's much more than enough to become native, unless you are a Greek nationalist, of course:






In other words - we DO NOT live in year 220 BC, so it's time to wake up.

 

[Domen]

Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1911 gave the following numbers for ethnic groups in Macedonia:

Slavs - 1,150,000
Turks - 500,000
Greeks - 250,000
Albanians - 120,000
Vlachs - 90,000
Jews - 75,000
Gypsies - 50,000

Total population - 2,200,000

And this is how it defined Macedonia:

MACEDONIA, the name generally given to that portion of European Turkey which is bounded on the N. by the Kara-Dagh mountain range and the frontier of Bulgaria, on the E. by the river Mesta, on the S. by the Aegean Sea and the frontier of Greece, and on the W. by an ill-defined line coinciding with the mountain chains of Shar (ancient Scardus) Grammus and Pindus. (...) In modern Macedonia are included the vilayet of Salonica (Turk. Selanik), the eastern and greater portion of the vilayet of Monastir (sanjaks of Monastir, Servia Turk. Selfije, and part of that of Kortcha), and the south-eastern portion of the vilayet of Kossovo (sanjak of Uskiib). The greater part of Macedonia is inhabited by a Slavonic population

============================

But coming back to Ancient Macedonians, whether they were Greek or not - here is such a spicy book:

http://www.slideshare.net/StojancePanov/ancient-macedonians-were-not-greeks-aleksandar-donski

One excerpt as example (you can read the whole book online in the link above):



===============================

Concerning the origin of Greek people:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

The Greek branch

Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

 

[Sitalkas]

Obviously there is a huge gap. You are too stubborn to understand what we just say "Macedonians are of Greek origin and not of Slavic".

Of course there are minorities NOWADAYS THOUGH. Thousands of years have passed and many conquerors since the time that the Greeks were dominant.

Slavs, Bulgars, Turks, Albanians, Egyptians etc etc, all these have left their genes here. But for god's shake they didn't exist 3000 years ago. Many of these were brought into Greece in order to build new cities and erase the Greek culture and race generally (Albanians).


History can't be manipulated.

The excavations in the tomb of Amphipolis are going well, they say that the tomb hasn't been looted so maybe they will find a buried corpse; or more.

I really hope they will do a DNA test and compare it a Slavic one. Then our dear neighbors will be able to shut it once and for all.

 

[Tahuti]

"Macedonians are of Greek origin and not of Slavic"

This is one reason why we have Polandball memes.

In recent 2014 European elections in Greece, a neo-Nazi party Golden Down received almost 10% of all votes

First of all, it was 6%-ish, and second, it isn't proof that Greeks are racist since voting turnouts in Greek elections are consistently low.

 

[Domen]

Similarity of Y-DNA haplogroups:

Macedonians* --- Greeks** // % of similarity:

I = 31,3 ----------------- 15,1 // 15,1
R1a = 14,2 ------------- 12,0 // 12,0
R1b = 11,4 ------------- 16,9 // 11,4
E1b = 18,0 ------------- 21,0 // 18,0
G2 = 3,8 ---------------- 6,3 // 3,8
J2 = 12,7 --------------- 20,1 // 12,7
J1 = 3,3 ----------------- 4,3 // 3,3
LT = 2,4 ----------------- 3,2 // 2,4
other = 2,9 ------------- 1,1 // ??? / 1,1
TOTAL ==================== 78,7 - 79,8%

Macedonians --- Poles // % of similarity:

I = 31,3 ----------------- 16,1 // 16,1
R1a = 14,2 ------------- 55,1 // 14,2
R1b = 11,4 ------------- 12,6 // 11,4
E1b = 18,0 ------------- 2,7 // 2,7
G2 = 3,8 ---------------- 1,3 // 1,3
J2 = 12,7 --------------- 3,6 // 3,6
J1 = 3,3 ----------------- 0,2 // 0,2
T = 1,9 ----------------- 0,5 // 0,5
N = 0,5 ----------------- 5,8 // 0,5
other = 2,9 ------------- 2,6 // ??? / 2,6
TOTAL ==================== 50,5 - 53,1%

---------------------------------------
---------------------------------------

*Ethnic Macedonians (Albanians etc. not included):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26187-Macedonians?p=391420&viewfull=1#post391420

**Sample of 1038 Greeks:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin

 

[Sitalkas]

wake up, that's for modern people. Of course there are similarities, everywhere in the world there are similarities. 1 man out of 20 worldwide has a mongol gene; was that possible before the mongol conquests? NO!

Have they tested our ancestors?

 

[gay_Aleks]

Wait, Macedonians are Poles?

Makes sense as any other explanation, like, that they're Martians from outer space whose immortal leader Alexander the Great died after a night of partying with alien alcohol from outer space in Babylon.

 

[Sitalkas]

ah, the martian wine! The finest of 'em all!

 

[Domen]

Have they tested our ancestors?

I can tell you what are the origins of each of these haplogroups in Greeks:

I haplogroup was present already among Mesolithic (Middle Stone Age) populations of Europe. E1b and J2 spread into Europe with Neolithic farmers - they came first to what is now Bulgaria and Greece, later spread agriculture further. G2 and T haplogroups also came with migrations of Neolithic farmers.

R1a and R1b came to Europe from Russian steppes during the Copper Age, mostly carried by Proto-Indo-European invaders.

Above I quoted an excerpt which says about Mycenaeans, they were mostly R1a people closely related to Indo-Iranians from Andronovo Culture:


Link to video.

Light skin, blonde hair and red hair colours did not arise in Europe, but spread into Europe from Russian steppes, with people of R1 haplogroup:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#pigmentation

archaeologist Folke Bergman discovered some 200 mummies of fair-haired Caucasian people in the Tarim Basin in Northwest China (a region known as Xinjiang, East Turkestan or Uyghurstan). The oldest of these mummies date back to 2000 BCE and all 7 male remains tested by Li et al. (2010), were positive for the R1a1 mutation

(...)

R1 populations spread genes for light skin, blond hair and red hair

There is now strong evidence that both R1a and R1b people contributed to the diffusion of the A111T mutation of the SLC24A5, which explains approximately 35% of skin tone difference between Europeans and Africans, and most variations within South Asia. The distribution pattern of the A111T allele (rs1426654) of matches almost perfectly the spread of Indo-European R1a and R1b lineages around Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia and South Asia. The mutation was probably passed on in the Early neolithic to other Near Eastern populations, which explains why Neolithic farmers in Europe already carried the A111T allele (e.g. Keller 2012 p.4, Lazaridis 2014 suppl. 7), although at lower frequency than modern Europeans and southern Central Asians.

The light skin allele is also found at a range of 15 to 30% in in various ethnic groups in northern sub-Saharan Africa, mostly in the Sahel and savannah zones inhabited by tribes of R1b-V88 cattle herders like the Fulani and the Hausa. This would presuppose that the A111T allele was already present among all R1b people before the Pre-Pottery Neolithic split between V88 and P297. R1a populations have an equally high incidence of this allele as R1b populations. On the other hand, the A111T mutation was absent from the 24,000-year-old R* sample from Siberia, and is absent from most modern R2 populations in Southeast India and Southeast Asia. Consequently, it can be safely assumed that the mutation arose among the R1* lineage during the late Upper Paleolithic, probably some time between 20,000 and 13,000 years ago.

Fair hair was another physical trait associated with the Indo-Europeans. In contrast, the genes for blue eyes were already present among Mesolithic Europeans belonging to Y-haplogroup I. The genes for blond hair are more strongly correlated with the distribution of haplogroup R1a, but those for red hair have not been found in Europe before the Bronze Age, and appear to have been spread primarily by R1b people (=> see The origins of red hair).

Europeans before the migrations of R1 and the Indo-European conquest (Proto-Indo-Europeans were overwhelmingly R1 people), looked like this:



R1 people appeared in Europe during the Copper Age. They were also the ones who invented chariots and brought them to Europe.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Wait, so Egyptians went in Europe and invented chariots?

 

[Domen]

Egyptians did not invent chariots - map shows spread of chariots (red area = place where chariot was invented):



As you can see Egyptians started using chariots ca. 1500 BC, or 500 years after they were invented (2000 BC).

 

[gay_Aleks]

I think it's safe to assume by now that if something is related to a horse, chances are, someone in Central Asia already invented it.

 

[Domen]

And it seems that the spread of chariot to Egypt was NOT peaceful:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25663-Pharaoh-Tutankhamun-Akhenaten-and-Amenhotep-III-were-R1b

Remember red-haired mummies of pharaohs ???:

The Egyptians have tested autosomal and Y-DNA markers of three Pharaohs of the 18th dynasty : Amenhotep III, his son Akhenaten and grandson Tutankhamun. The aim was to determine the cause of death of Tutankhamun, who died at age 19. It appears to have been malaria.

Although not yet published officially, the Y-DNA results were said to confirm the paternity between the Pharaohs. The video from Discovery Channel shows the Y-STR results*, which appear to be R1b and indeed the European R1b1b2 rather than the Levantine/Egyptian R1b1a. R1b1b2 is quite rare in modern Egypt (2% of the population) and was assumed to have come mostly through the Greek and Roman occupation. R1b1a makes up 4% of the Egyptian male lineages and dates from the Paleolithic.

The 18th dynasty (starting in 1570 BCE) follows the period of Indo-European expansion to Europe (4300-2000 BCE), India, Persia and the Middle-East (1700-1500 BCE). The Hittites took over central Anatolia from 1750 BCE, and the Mitanni (of Indo-Iranian origin) ruled Syria from circa 1500 BCE.

Egypt's 18th dynasty inaugurated the New Kingdom after the Second Intermediate Period, when the Hyksos ("foreign rulers") took over power between 1650 and 1570 BCE. It is very possible that the 18th Dynasty was of Hyksos origin, which could be Hittite or of other Indo-European origin. The Hyksos were described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors associated with the mercenary Mitanni. This strongly suggest an Indo-European origin indeed, as the steppe people were mounted archers, and the Mitanni are of proven IE origin.

It was an Indo-European (R1 people) takeover of power in Egypt. So also Egypt can be added to the list of their conquests.