WH Mod Expansion Discussion

[fe3333au]

@Mr.Do - You're doing a good job as far as I can determine ... the mod is at least moving ...

So what are your thoughts on the undead units ... how will they be spread b/w the appropriate civs?

I assume the orcs will be quite easy, with the hobgoblins being assigned to the goblins?

 

[Mr. Do]

Good question there then. CyberChrist's suggestion for how to do it seems best so far:
Khemri:
Slave Warrior > Spearman
Swordsman
Archer
Catapult
War Chariot
Necromancer
all as normal, until it discovers Necromancy at the end of the first age. Then, spearman, swordsman, archer and war chariot will upgrade to the undead versions. The Necromancer will upgrade to Liche Priest later on, although that unit will not have the massive HP bonus as before.

In the second age, skeleton cavalry will be available with chivalry. The skeleton halberdier will be available with polearms. Tomb Guard available with steel, Ushabti with Elementalism, Bone Giant with Awakening. Screaming Skull Catapult should probably come in with Adv. Siegecraft.

Tomb swarm I think I'll mess with a bit... since in WH the Liche Priests do not raise the dead quite in the same way as Necromancers do, the Tomb Swarm will be enslaved when the Liche Priest wins combat. It will have the paradrop ability, but may be upgraded to become a skeleton warrior (or even tomb guard).

Lahmia And Sylvania will follow a similar sort of path, but instead of Necromancy in the first age there will be Vampirism.
Slave Warrior -> Spearman -> Skeleton Spearman -> Skeleton Halberdier (defence only 5 - Grave Guard produced by Mausoleum as usual)
Swordsman -> Skeleton Warrior -> Wight Infantry
Archer -> Skeleton Archer (Lahmia only)
Horseman -> Cavalry -> Blood/ Black Knight
Vampires, Necromancers as normal.
Fell bats and Ghost Warriors will appear with Black Arts and Conjuration respectively. I think I'll give them both to the Vampiric nations, although I never thought fell bats really fit in with Lahmia.

Hobgoblins will be on the Chaos Dwarf civs, with their bolt thrower being available to the orcs and goblins too. I was thinking of making bolt throwers quite weak with their bombard, but capable of taking 2HP off, by the way. hat way they are separate to stone throwers and so on...

 

[Tyrion]

The undead idea side of things i think looks good. And it would be nice to see it.
Is this xpack only going to have this Chaos Dwarf civ and some tech tree rearrangements or are we going to be adding other things?

 

[aaglo]

We're not going to be adding a single thing - it's Mr. Do's job

To be honest, the chaos dwarfs are the only civ ready to be added (save the leaderhead, but Kinboat said he propably could help with that).

Mr. Do, have you considered of using the hobgoblin worker as the worker for chaos dwarfs (I think it would suit well)? And perhaps also to goblins and orcs?

And how about the hobgoblin settler - could it be used for the goblins (it's green and slim - like goblins are )?

 

[Frostyboy]

Great Stuff!

I wonder if we could differensiate between graphically similar units by changing colours on them (if this is easy and the creator wants/have time )
For example the Vampire and Vampire Lord share the same graphics, but by changing the hue of the inner cape to yellow on the vampire or purple on the vampire lord, we have two different ones. The same goes for necromancer(lords), sorceror(lords) and so on. This could be done for this patch if people agree (and if it's not too much job).

Frosty

 

[aaglo]

Making slight colour edits shouldn't be too much of a problem - altough not having done those, I'm not sure. Mrtn is one of the experts on those . Such variations are a cool idea, but not of the highest importance for atleast one reason: download size (I'm guessing, that the total download is going to be somewhere around 350-400 mb ).

 

[Frostyboy]

I understand regarding to download. If each unit-folder takes over 1 Mb to download.

But is this perhaps easy to do for ourselves in a program like Adobe After Effects or so?
(or what do you reccomend?)

 

[aaglo]

Hmmm... I won't suggest anything - I'll just take orders from mr.Do, and do what he wants me to do

 

[RRnut]

There is one slight adjustment that I would like to see made in stats in the next version of the mod - a reduction of the cost of the swordsman unit.

Compare it to the longbowman (and equivs) which come at the same time.

Swordsman - 6-4-1 40 shields, and iron.
Longbowman - 6-2-1 (3 ?)-0-1, 30 shields.

Therefore, for the cost of two swordsman, one can purchase two longbowman and an additional spearman for defense, thus making up for the lower defense of the bowmen. The only time that I can think that I would use Swordsmen over Longbowmen is if I had a huge military, high shield output, and crippling unit costs. In other words, never .

my recommendation is simply to lower the cost of the swordsman; down to 30 would be good. This way the longbowmen and swordsmen will match. Each gives a defensive bonus to a stack, each has the same offense. This will ensure that all units are used more often.

Anybody else feel the same way?

 

[aaglo]

Do note, that some civs (i.e. orcs&goblins, lizardmen) bowmen have an attack of 5, so there .

BTW, I was just playing as lizardmen, and I annihilated the dark elves with my horde of skink bowmen (about 20 bowmen there - the dark elves didn't stand a chance )

 

[Frostyboy]

I think many units/buildings are too expensive too.

The Dark Elf War Hydra should have +2 HP. If not it should be far cheaper. Else it will be redundant and never used I think.

The Mausoleum is also quite expensive. I would normally not build it for 200.

 

[mrtn]

I'm using Adobe Photoshop for my unit edits, I've no idea what Adobe After Effects is, but I suspect that you can't use it. If you want to edit units you must learn to work with unit palettes.

I agree that the Mausoleum is quite expensive in the early part of the game, and in the later parts you don't need it... 100 or 150 shields?

About that swordsman, how about 35 shields?

 

[Frostyboy]

I'm using Adobe Photoshop for my unit edits, I've no idea what Adobe After Effects is, but I suspect that you can't use it. If you want to edit units you must learn to work with unit palettes.

But for the flc movie files you can't use Photoshop. I know about the palette, and I have changed the city-screen back to normal food, shields and commerce .

I agree that the Mausoleum is quite expensive in the early part of the game, and in the later parts you don't need it... 100 or 150 shields?

I think 100 is enough. As you say, it's something you'll need early.

About that swordsman, how about 35 shields?

Fair Enough, but 30, like normal Civ is perhaps better since they do require iron and don't have the bombard like the archers.

 

[Frostyboy]

So do we have a complete suggestion to unit stats including cost and the tech that makes them available? It could be interesting to see what people have in mind.

 

[fe3333au]

Just wondering my very first post was back in 1st February 2005, where I found a graphics glitch in the civilopedia units list ... just wondering has or will this be fixed ... post 2160 here ... maybe it is one of those errors that can be fixed by delete and re-enter method

And along those lines I think that other issues were mentioned ... maybe those who remember should post again, therefore small twitchy things can be fixed ...

Just a thought

 

[Mr. Do]

Is that the "thrall" graphic bug? If someone can fix that then please chime in

I won't be changing the costs or atatck values of units right now, but I won't rule it out for later either. There are many, many changes I would make from my own experience, personally, so if I start I dunno where I'll finish!

I forgot we had a Hobgoblin settler unit, I'll definitely put that in for both the goblins and orcs. Hobgoblin worker though... hmm... I think the regular goblin worker is fine in that role for Orcs, Goblins and Chaos Dwarfs- the Hobgoblins were put in charge of their greenskin cousins, so it would fit that the goblins get to do the lowliest of work for the Chaos Dwarfs, as opposed to the Hobgoblins.

To reiterate, the add-on will have:
1) Chaos Dwarf civ added (with appropriate leaderhead, I hope)
2) All suitable new units
3) Slight tech tree re-work, primarily for the undead
4) Ogre and Beastman resources added
5) Ogre tech added

Other suggestions are welcomed as long as they're not too much work or too outlandish. If you have already playtested such modifications yourself, then that's even better! For example, I will hereby suggest the following:
6) New unique tech for the Wood Elves that lets them research a suitable tech that lets them build Treemen (Dryads being available where Treemen once were, along the regular research path), and a new Great Wonder, "Oak of Ages".
(I may also modify/ add similar unique wonders, for the Dwarfs/ Chaos Dwarfs- but to do this I'll have to take away the Dwarfs' free tech Mining, so I'm in two minds about it)

 

[mrtn]

Something like this?
#ICON_PRTO_Thrall
art\civilopedia\icons\units\x_gallic swordsman civpedia lg.pcx
art\civilopedia\icons\units\x_gallic swordsman civpedia sm.pcx

As far as I remember it used the large pcx for both entries, I fixed it ages ago.

The Dwarves should start with Mining IMO.

 

[Scytale]

I too think that the hobgoblin worker graphics wolud be much better than the present one.

 

[LMR]

i agree. dwarves are the mining kings!

 

[aaglo]

1) Chaos Dwarf civ added (with appropriate leaderhead, I hope)
2) All suitable new units
3) Slight tech tree re-work, primarily for the undead
4) Ogre and Beastman resources added
5) Ogre tech added

1. Ok!
2. Ok!
3. Ok! (assuming that you can fit the techs in there somewhere )
4. Ok!
5. Ok!

For example, I will hereby suggest the following:
6) New unique tech for the Wood Elves that lets them research a suitable tech that lets them build Treemen (Dryads being available where Treemen once were, along the regular research path), and a new Great Wonder, "Oak of Ages".

6) Hmmm. I thought that dryads could be available a bit earlier. Well, I hope they have some units to take them alive over the dark ages . About that "Oak of ages": what would be the benefit for that? And do you/we have a wood-elf specific tech there - or will you create one?

(I may also modify/ add similar unique wonders, for the Dwarfs/ Chaos Dwarfs- but to do this I'll have to take away the Dwarfs' free tech Mining, so I'm in two minds about it)

I don't think they need such wonders - at least I think they are not necessary - but please do as you see fit (don't pay attention to our squeaking).