What 5 Civilizations Should Always Be In Civ?

[Ranos]

Do check your facts. Germany had already failed to overwhelm England and turned its attention on Russia.

German attacks continued on England after it turned on the USSR. It had not "failed," it had postponed.

The USA did not enter WWII. Japan and Germany attacked the USA.
The USA's policy was of craven cowardice. Its policy of strict neutrality was exactly the same as Sweden and Switzerland without even the excuse that they were small and vulnerable, and unlike them, unsuccessful.

Nitpicking over words does nothing for your arguement. Whether we were attacked or entered on our own, we still declared war. German never attacked the US before we declared war. Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, we declared war on Japan then Germany declared war on us. No German attacks occurred until after that.

Consider this.

Joe goes out for a meal with four colleagues. Bill comes to $100 dollars.

Chang puts $25 dollars on table. John puts $25 on table. Ivan puts $25 dollars on table. When Joe realises that nobody else is going to pay his share, he puts $25 dollars on the table and then says "I saved you all because your $75 dollars wasn't enough to meet the bill".

Joe then goes back to the office and spends the next 60 years telling the story of how he bought everybody lunch and how ungrateful they are.

Needless to say Chang, John and Ivan are not impressed.

And that is exactly how the rest of the world sees your claims.

Try this.

Joe goes out for a meal with four colleagues. The waitress leaves the bill on the table. It comes to $100 dollars.

Chang says he'll pay $25 but only has $10 on him. John also wants to pay $25but has no cash and his credit card is maxed. Ivan writes a $25 check. The waitress comes to collect the money and tells Ivan that they don't accept checks. Ivan has no other means to pay the bill. Joe realises that nobody can take care of the bill so he gives the waitress $100 and tells Chang to keep his last $10.

They all go out to John's car to discover that somebody broke all of the windows and stole everything out of the car. Joe was lucky because he took his pack in with him but everybody else left theirs in the car. Joe says no problem, pays to get the car fixed and buys everybody else new stuff. Chang and Ivan never pay Joe back.

60 years later, Chang and Ivan are constantly complaining because Joe has so much money and is doing his best to help others, sometimes doing it the wrong way. John is the only one who is still Joe's friend and actully does his best to join Joe in his attempt to help others.

EDIT: I didn't read Tiberius209's post before I responded. Good analogy.

 

[Bolgard]

If we can just take a step back for a second and toss political ideology and bias out the window, it might serve us better.

The United States entered the war after they were attacked, and had seen their interests threatened. This doesn't mean that the US was opposed to the concept of helping its allies in dire straits, but it took our own interests being directly threatened before we got involved. It happens. This isn't a trait unique to Americans. All states look out for their own self interests first, no matter their location, color or language. It'd be idiotic not to.

Does this mean the United States was not operating out of altruism? Yes. Does it mean they should be crucified for it? No. But it is clear that direct self interest was involved in the decision to roll out the tanks. Western European countries, generally speaking, should be thankful for the involvement of the United States, as the United States should be thankful to those respective countries for their support in the conflict.

I'm American. I dig my country. I also think patriotism, in its purest form, is silly no matter what country you live in. Patriotism creats bias, clouds judgement. If everyone had clear judgement, patriotism wouldn't exist.

 

[Jecrell]

I find it funny that people choose Chinese to always be a Civ, yet very few people actually play them.

 

[Tiberius209]

I'm American. I dig my country. I also think patriotism, in its purest form, is silly no matter what country you live in. Patriotism creats bias, clouds judgement. If everyone had clear judgement, patriotism wouldn't exist.

Dunno that I agree with that last sentence.

Dictionary.com states that patriotism means "Love of and devotion to one's country."

So you're saying that if you everyone had clear judgement, no one would love their country. I don't see the two concepts as being mutually exclusive. It's also funny, as three sentences prior you say, "I dig my country".

 

[Akka]

Actually I think England makes reasonable sense as a representative for all modern+Western Civs if one is limited to 5 total.

Clearly not. As said previously, their cultural contributions were very small, and they fail by large to represent Europe on this side. France and Germany made much greater contribution to european culture, by several scales. Its military power was always on par with the rest of Europe, never clearly superior (unlike Prussia in the early XVIIIth or France in the XVIIth, late XVIIIth and early XIXth), and its famous colonial empire became really relevant and important only very shortly, during the late XIXth century. The Spanish had a more relevant empire for several times longer.
I dislike to say it because I don't want to fall into the nationalistic favoritism that precisely plague this poll with all the England votes, but even by trying to be the most objective, I would see France being far better candidate for Europe civilization than England, by several scales.

Oh, and the whole argument about "we savec your arses in WWII !" is sickingly bothersome. I dream of a day where I won't see it popping its ugly head in every discussion about history. I'm tired of it on epic scale.

 

[Akka]

I find it funny that people choose Chinese to always be a Civ, yet very few people actually play them.

How so ?

It's not because we recognize the importance of a civ, that we necessarily want to play them...

 

[LAnkou]

that's strange the way people forgetthe part of France in WWII: we start by being beaten but we were a part of the allies and not being at Yalta does not mean we didn't do a great job too. FFI, FFL and other things. so don't forget Michel in your bill story

Jack, Sam Ivan et Michel are in a restaurant each having their own table. Comes another client, Erik, who start to eat at tables of others client. Sam think "it's not my problem, i actually have some problems to get the money to eat and my table is far away from him", Ivan and Erik meet to plan eating at a polish client table and during that time, Erik eat at a czequoslovaquian client table, Jack and Michel says Erik "you shouldn't do that, it's not good, let's say it's your last time!". Erik say yes but as he want to eat at the polish table he get there. so Jack and Michel decide to say they gonna beat Erik. Erik comesand kick the ass of Michel and as he want to kick Jack'ass, he see that this one is hidden behind the bar. His only chance to beat him is throwing some glasses. In the same time, Erik attack Ivan's table, but it is a very large table and it takes time. Kojiro throw a glass at sam who say ****ing restaurant and start to fight against Kojiro and Erik. With the precious help of Jack who let sam getting behind the bar and Michel who couragely node together Erik's lacets while Erik steps on his face, Jack, Sam, Michel and Wayne (from canada) get outside the bar and push back Erik to its table, Ivan doing the same thing on his side. Sam push back Kojiro to its table, throw pepper at him twice and kojiro accept to keep only its table.

For the next 50 years, Ivan and Sam will disagree, Jack and Michel will be helped at the beginning to be a wall between Sam and Ivan, Kojiro will stand up and grow, after Ivan get sick, Sam is alone saying he saved everyone and Michel will stand against him saying its not totally true but he is no ingrate because without Michel, Sam would have never born.

As you see, it's far more complicated, and even if they didn't save us by themselves, we have to acknowledge US great part during WWII. And US have to acknowledge UK, France, and others part in WWII....

 

[Wolfwood]

Greece,
Egypt,
Aztec,
Inca,
Chinese

The older the better, although I did not pick the oldest ones...

 

[Tiberius209]

that's strange the way people forgetthe part of France in WWII: we start by being beaten but we were a part of the allies and not being at Yalta does not mean we didn't do a great job too. FFI, FFL and other things. so don't forget Michel in your bill story

...and Michel who couragely node together Erik's lacets while Erik steps on his face....

Are you for real? It never amazes me how the latter-day French have reinvented their history to paint their country as courageous during WWII. The "Resistance" - such that it was - was small-time compared to the number who gladly "nazified" themselves.

Speaking frankly, the only reason the French harmed the Germans from the inside was because the Germans had a penchant for using French soldiers to guard certain positions, thereby assuring the real Allies easy victories at certain points. For example, without the French "holding" the African beaches for the Germans, the U.S. would have had a much bloodier struggle getting a foothold on that continent.

...without Michel, Sam would have never born.

Talk about something that I'm sick of hearing. The French entry into the Revolution was AT LEAST as late, comparatively speaking, as the US entry into WWII. At least the colonies had already turned the tide in the Revolution by the time the French entered. On the other hand, Stalingrad didn't come until more than six months after the US entry into the war.

Besides that, the objectives of the two wars were not the same. Britain could have won the American Revolution, but the window of opportunity for keeping the Revolution from spreading like a wildfire was small. Once Britain had decided not to meet with colonial representatives and instead conduct a burn and destroy campaign on the American continent, they lost the goodwill of the majority of the American people. When they failed to destroy the American army in Dec. 1777 and then allowed two small but dramatic victories for the continentals, recruitment soared, and the British lost their last real opportunity to squash the rebellion that was quickly getting out of control. By Saratoga, late the next year, the American army was already a disciplined enough fighting force - in part due to von Steuben's drilling at Valley Forge - that they could stand reasonably well against the British army. But even then, the actual military battles were less important than the goodwill of the people. With British funds and resolve dwindling, and American resolve and sense of national identity gaining, it was but a matter of time. Only then did France enter the war.

Not that I'm ungrateful for the assistance... and sorry that the money the Frenchies spent destroyed their economy and led to almost 30 years of bloody revolution and dreams of world domination... only to end in the restoration of the monarchy they began with... which led to another republic, then another empire, then an embarassing military defeat (sound familiar?) only to arrive at another forced republic...etc, etc. Talk about futility...

 

[Martinus]

1. Egypt
2. China
3. Rome
4. Greece
5. Persia

If there was a single "European" civilization, it should go in, but none of the European civs (like England, France, Germany, Russia etc.) deserves to be in more than the 5 listed above.

 

[Martinus]

Greece,
Egypt,
Aztec,
Inca,
Chinese

The older the better, although I did not pick the oldest ones...

I would disagree about Inca and Aztec - once again (as with England/France/Germany/Russia/Spain as representation of Europe), the Mezo-american civilizations need to be represented with something, but any of these civilizations, when taken separately, was rather weak and short-lived.

If you compare this to China or Egypt, they seem pretty insignificant.

 

[Tiberius209]

I would disagree about Inca and Aztec - once again (as with England/France/Germany/Russia/Spain as representation of Europe), the Mezo-american civilizations need to be represented with something, but any of these civilizations, when taken separately, was rather weak and short-lived.

If you compare this to China or Egypt, they seem pretty insignificant.

I agree with this general sentiment. I don't know how many people realize the Aztecs only existed in their then-current form for ~ 100 years when Cortez showed up. They formed from a tribe that migrated from the north into modern-day Mexico, conquered the surrounding tribes, and settled on the ruins of a much older civilizations - I believe the older civilization was called the Toltecs.

The Inca, at least, were quite a bit older. I'm certainly not sure, but I think they are dated from around 800-1000AD. If anyone else knows more, please post.

All this, however, still leads to the question of what American culture to include. There certainly was a civilization here, but I don't know of any tribal name long lived enough or universal enough to be included.

 

[LAnkou]

Are you for real? It never amazes me how the latter-day French have reinvented their history to paint their country as courageous during WWII. The "Resistance" - such that it was - was small-time compared to the number who gladly "nazified" themselves.

Speaking frankly, the only reason the French harmed the Germans from the inside was because the Germans had a penchant for using French soldiers to guard certain positions, thereby assuring the real Allies easy victories at certain points. For example, without the French "holding" the African beaches for the Germans, the U.S. would have had a much bloodier struggle getting a foothold on that continent.

you need to learn more about french resistance, maybe some people were glad of nazifying, but a greater part was antigermanic. maybe it's not french people who reinvented history but the people who teach you. I never said the whole France was courageous, i said there was the resistance, inside and outside. there was the active resistance, destroying bridges, military supplies and others things, and there was the passive one, trying to survive with helping the active one and not helping germans... It was french troops who enter Paris first (after it free itself), without resistance actions, D-Day could have been a failure.

and about the french participation in the independance war, well, we help, its a fact, it may be not as crucial as US in WW but it was one part of the victory condition, no one can say how it will occur without it. i can say that US reinvented their history to show how independant they were, it's an easy thing, as you show in your previous post.
Maybe UK would have change their way of treating settlers and USA would be a part of UK without french participation....

 

[Tiberius209]

you need to learn more about french resistance....and i won't teach you since it isn't the subject of this post..

Oh, ok. Put it this way. I know:

1. The true French insurgents were among the bravest actors of this particular war because their conditions were the worst. Unfortunately...
2. ...whatever "Resistance" there was was insignificant compared to the number of Frenchmen who were glad to give the Nazi salute.
3. The French were incapable of removing themselves from Nazi control, which is strange because...
4. ... it seems that every French citizen now swears his family members at the time were part of the resistance. If it were true that the French resistance were as widespread as the French now like to make out, the Germans would NEVER have been able to hold the country.
5. French soldiers willingly acted as auxilliaries for German units.

and about the french participation in the independance war, well, we help, its a fact, it may be not as crucial as US in WW but it was one part of the victory condition, no one can say how it will occur without it. Maybe UK would have change their way of treating settlers and USA would be a part of UK....

I never said they didn't, and some of the contributions were valuable from our perspective. But it isn't true that we never would have won without you (i.e. "Sam would not have been born"). Louis XVI himself claimed to the US ambassador (Ben Franklin I think) that he was waiting to see that the US could win before entering. That evidence came at Saratoga in 1778, afterwhich France declared war.

Also, Spain and the Netherlands joined the effort as well. All the European powers realized the colonial strength England was building and took the opportunity to try to peal off colonies while she was busy fighting rebels. Most of these fights between Europeans were over the far wealthier Caribbean islands, a fact that allowed England with her superior navy to nevertheless win more than she lost. The French were the only one of the three to send soldiers to the continent, where their practical knowledge of seige warfare came in handy. As I said, the contributions were valuable.

 

[Willem]

So you're saying that if you everyone had clear judgement, no one would love their country.

That's right, they'd love the world instead. Patriotism only serves to divide us into unreal entities that belong to this country and that country. We all belong to the world, and we should focus on that instead.

 

[LAnkou]

@ tiberrius209:

i never said there was plenty of resistants. On Wiki, it's said that 5% were active resistants, and more than ten times this number were supporters of resistance. that's what i wrote, and stop saying the majority of french people were happy welcoming nazis, it is insulting for the memory of the huge number of french people who died during WWII. a majority of french casualties were civil ones and even if people didn't play active role, they generally keep secret what they knew.

and yes a lot of people can say that some of the members of their families were FFI or FFL, there were few people who were glad of nazis invasion

 

[LAnkou]

@tiberius209:

stop saying a majority of french were glad making nazi salute, that's false and insulting to the memories of the 400 000 persons who died under nazi occupation.
a majority of people can say they have member of their family in FFL or FFI, that's true. yes there was only 5% of the french population who were active armed resistant, but a huge majority of french people were supporters. Germans had some problems holding France, the same one USA have with Irak, a majority of french soldiers fighting along germans were forced conscripts. french resistance is universally ackowledge as a model. and yes there was supporters of the invaders, as there is in Irak for example, but a vast majority of the population want them to go (as in Irak too, by the way), even if they didn't hold weapons and fight for it.

 

[Mynethos]

Sumer!!!

-----
Egypt
Germany
England
Mongols

 

[Head Serf]

Wow, this topic of mine has really grown. Well, here's the order as of October 13, 2005:

By the way, if 2 countries are equal in points I put the one first in my list first. Also I realize that these are not completely accurate because I couldn't include all the civilizations.

World

1. Rome: 303
2. China: 252
3. Greece: 211
4. Egypt: 209
5. England: 168
6. Babylon: 76
7. Germany: 74
8. America: 74
9. India: 73
10. France: 64
11. Persia: 59
12. Russia: 53
13. Aztecs: 38
14. Japan: 34
15. Mongols: 23
16. Inca: 19
17. Spain: 15
18. Ottoman Empire: 12
19. Mali: 12

Africa

1. Egypt: 209
2. Mali: 12

Americas

1. America: 74
2. Aztecs: 38
3. Inca: 19

Europe

1. Rome: 303
2. Greece: 211
3. England: 168
4. Germany: 74
5. France: 64
6. Russia: 53
7. Spain: 15

Asia with the Middle East

1. China: 252
2. Babylon: 76
3. India: 73
4. Persia: 59
5. Japan: 34
6. Mongols: 23
7. Ottoman Empire: 12

That's my list. You can expect another update in maybe a week depending on the number of new votes.

 

[Bolgard]

Dunno that I agree with that last sentence.

Dictionary.com states that patriotism means "Love of and devotion to one's country."

So you're saying that if you everyone had clear judgement, no one would love their country. I don't see the two concepts as being mutually exclusive. It's also funny, as three sentences prior you say, "I dig my country".

Let me elaborate: "I dig my country." Very true. There are far worse places to live. My country is far, far from perfect, but I was lucky enough to be born into a family with enough to eat, and an ability to educate myself. On the whole as far as liberal democracies are concerned, my country is lacking in some areas, but if you're lucky enough to be born in the right place and circumstances, you have a lot of options open to you.

What I take licence with is "love of country" or "patriotism". You can be level-headed and generally have clear judgement, but blind devotion to patriotism isn't a quality of level-headedness and clear judgement. I would say that in spite of being patriotic, one can generally have clear judgement.