What are the next lost lanuages?

[Dachs]

I'll paraphrase Jan Werich: Czech has a lot of words for ordinary things.

OMG it's the original guy who was supposed to play Blofeld in You Only Live Twice!

 

[Winner]

OMG it's the original guy who was supposed to play Blofeld in You Only Live Twice!

both Gilbert and Broccoli determined that Werich wasn't menacing enough

Oh Gods Werich and menacing? That's the last word I think of in relation to him.

both producer Albert R. Broccoli and director Lewis Gilbert felt that he was a poor choice, resembling a "poor, benevolent Santa Claus"

This actually fits 100%

 

[El Koeno]

With these new hip-hoppers and teen-texters, English is in deep peril.

In fact, all languages are... I got a text message from my mother in which she replaced a few letters with one number (or xifra if you prefer )....

 

[Mirc]

Spoiler :

Round little apple

In Czech, the literal translation would be "malé kulaté jablko". Alternatively, you can say "kulaté jablíčko". Though "jablíčko" could mean "small apple" (it's a diminutive form), this word has an emotional charge attached to it. "Jablíčko" implies that you like the apple, that it is nice; it doesn't have to be physically small.

Then you can also alter the word "kulatý" (round) and say "kulaťoučké jablíčko". Now you're in trouble. "Kulaťoučký" also means "round", but it once again has an emotional charge attached. When something is "kulaťoučké", it's not only round but it is nicely rounded and you like the way it is rounded. You find it cute and when you use this adjective to describe the word "jablíčko", what you get are two words loaded with emotion. Therefore, "kulaťoučké jablíčko" is a small or very nice and very nicely rounded apple that you like. I could add another word: "maličké kulaťoučké jablíčko". Compare it to the "malé kulaté jablko" from the beginning. It means the same, but the deminutive forms I used add a cumulative emotional effect to it. I can't translate it into English without losing it.

This whole example is based just on the use of diminutive forms in Czech. They exist in English too, so perhaps you can find a pretty way how to translate it.

I do believe that Czech is a more colorful language in many respects compared to English, which I think is a bit too sharp. On the other hand, English is more exact which is an advantage in many situations.

Exactly the same can be done in my language. And I agree, it is a way of expression that's simply non-existent in English. Apart from that, we also have double-diminutives (and augmentatives), relative diminutives and augmentatives, some 3 ways of making impersonal sentences and many ways to form sentences with intransitive verbs, the language is also a null-subject language which gives you amazing stylistic possibilities.

Yes, I agree English is a way, way, way too exact language for my taste. Perfect for communication between non-native speakers, often easily getting to the point, with very simply grammar, wide vocabulary, etc, but I agree it has terrible limitations when it comes to what kind of art you can do with the words of a language.

 

[Gooblah]

Exactly the same can be done in my language. And I agree, it is a way of expression that's simply non-existent in English. Apart from that, we also have double-diminutives (and augmentatives), relative diminutives and augmentatives, some 3 ways of making impersonal sentences and many ways to form sentences with intransitive verbs, the language is also a null-subject language which gives you amazing stylistic possibilities.

Yes, I agree English is a way, way, way too exact language for my taste. Perfect for communication between non-native speakers, often easily getting to the point, with very simply grammar, wide vocabulary, etc, but I agree it has terrible limitations when it comes to what kind of art you can do with the words of a language.

Just wondering, but your/Winner's explanation made me think that Czech/other languages are less precise than English? I.e there is a smaller vocabulary, and thus, explanation is based on pronunciation and emphasis and context rather than the given meaning of the word?

 

[Mirc]

Just wondering, but your/Winner's explanation made me think that Czech/other languages are less precise than English? I.e there is a smaller vocabulary, and thus, explanation is based on pronunciation and emphasis and context rather than the given meaning of the word?

Less precise does not equal smaller vocabulary!! Not at all.

The meaning was that you can alter any word in much more ways than in English, making looking at it from different perspectives and conveying different feelings much easier. The emphasis and context has no connection with what we said, really... We were talking about expression possibilities that English doesn't have, and yes you are right, about what we feel that is over-precision in a language. I don't think I've said anything about context in my post.

While English probably has the biggest vocabulary (or almost biggest) of all the languages in the world, size has absolutely no connection with precision, and generally impacts speakers very little, as most of the "vocabulary" of a language with a very large one is not used in regular conversations, consists mostly of neologisms and technical terms, etc.

 

[Winner]

Just wondering, but your/Winner's explanation made me think that Czech/other languages are less precise than English? I.e there is a smaller vocabulary, and thus, explanation is based on pronunciation and emphasis and context rather than the given meaning of the word?

I wouldn't say that about Czech. On the contrary: Czechs are usually shocked when they open the Czech-English dictionary and find out that most English words have about 10 different meanings and that one can determine the right meaning only by looking at the context.

For example, look at the word pot. My dictionary tells me there are about 30-40 different meanings, or at least it translates as about 40 different Czech words. That's simply crazy, since in my language, the word "hrnec" - the utensil used for cooking - has only one meaning. Most of Czech words have only one possible meaning.

 

[Arwon]

You don't use metaphor or extend the meanings of word to new contexts? I mean the majority of the meanings of "pot" go back to that original sense of the word.

 

[Winner]

You don't use metaphor or extend the meanings of word to new contexts?

Sometimes, but most nouns have only one clearly defined meaning.

I mean the majority of the meanings of "pot" go back to that original sense of the word.

We have separate words for most of the other meanings of "pot" (well, except marijuana - the slang expression for it is "tráva" - grass ). Also, in English it is common that a word can be used both as a noun and a verb. This is very rare in Czech.

 

[Mirc]

Easy change of grammatical value is a good point for English though, I'd say.

 

[Arwon]

But verbing weirds language!

 

[gangleri2001]

But verbing weirds language!

I don't opinion so.

 

[LucyDuke]

The meaning was that you can alter any word in much more ways than in English, making looking at it from different perspectives and conveying different feelings much easier. The emphasis and context has no connection with what we said, really... We were talking about expression possibilities that English doesn't have, and yes you are right, about what we feel that is over-precision in a language. I don't think I've said anything about context in my post.

We just add an extra word or two, usually. It works just fine.

But verbing weirds language!

 

[warpus]

We just add an extra word or two, usually. It works just fine.

It does work fine, but I don't really think anyone who hasn't been fluent in more than 1 language is going to get the "different languages allow people to express themselves in different ways" argument.

 

[Irish Caesar]

It does work fine, but I don't really think anyone who hasn't been fluent in more than 1 language is going to get the "different languages allow people to express themselves in different ways" argument.

Yeah... I never got that "lost in translation" phrase until I realized that Le Petit Prince sounds lame and goofy in English but awesome in French.

 

[raketooy]

Round little apple

In Czech, the literal translation would be "malé kulaté jablko". Alternatively, you can say "kulaté jablíčko". Though "jablíčko" could mean "small apple" (it's a diminutive form), this word has an emotional charge attached to it. "Jablíčko" implies that you like the apple, that it is nice; it doesn't have to be physically small.

Then you can also alter the word "kulatý" (round) and say "kulaťoučké jablíčko". Now you're in trouble. "Kulaťoučký" also means "round", but it once again has an emotional charge attached. When something is "kulaťoučké", it's not only round but it is nicely rounded and you like the way it is rounded. You find it cute and when you use this adjective to describe the word "jablíčko", what you get are two words loaded with emotion. Therefore, "kulaťoučké jablíčko" is a small or very nice and very nicely rounded apple that you like. I could add another word: "maličké kulaťoučké jablíčko". Compare it to the "malé kulaté jablko" from the beginning. It means the same, but the deminutive forms I used add a cumulative emotional effect to it. I can't translate it into English without losing it.

This whole example is based just on the use of diminutive forms in Czech. They exist in English too, so perhaps you can find a pretty way how to translate it.

I do believe that Czech is a more colorful language in many respects compared to English, which I think is a bit too sharp. On the other hand, English is more exact which is an advantage in many situations.

In Finnish we haven't got that rich nouns and adjectives but there is something similar with our verbs.

Take for example verb hypätä = to jump
Hypähtää is derived from that and it implies that the jump is small and sudden.
Hypähdellä is the same but there are several small sudden jumps and the jumper might move from place to place as result.
Hypellä is derived from hypätä and means to make several jumps that are probably not as small or sudden as in hypähdellä.
Hyppelehtiä is derived from the previous one, it means mostly the same as hypähdellä but there is certainly a difference in the nuance, but I just can't find a way to translate it, other than that the duration of action in hyppelehtiä is likely longer than hypähdellä.

Those are at least ones that can well be used in practice without sounding weird at all, and there are more. In addition I can construct words like hyppelehdiskellä that are perfectly correct forms that a native can comprehend even when they are a bit too complex to actually use.

And besides nuances, the meanings can be changed with modifying the verb. While hypähtää was to make a small sudden jump, hypähdyttää is to make someone to make a small sudden jump. And you can derive from that hypähdytellä, which implies that it is done occassionally (or in some context, as hardly paying attention to the deed). Perfectly understandable for a native (in context) but a major pain to translate. In theory (no way in practice) you could further modify it infinitely like hypähdytätätellä = to make someone occasionally to make someone other to make someone else to make someone to make a small sudden jump, or hypähdytellätätytellellyttää.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Out of curiosity, is the player Hyypia have anything related to the word Hypata in finnish? Also i see the letter ä alot in Finnish. How do you pronounce the letter?

 

[raketooy]

Out of curiosity, is the player Hyypia have anything related to the word Hypata in finnish?

I don't think so. Not in any obvious way at least.

And ä is pronounced quite like the a in "cat". In IPA æ.

 

[TheLastOne36]

So the ä is used more then a regular 'a' in finish then? I'm guessing more words use the a sound like in 'Apple' then otherwise?

 

[raketooy]

So the ä is used more then a regular 'a' in finish then? I'm guessing more words use the a sound like in 'Apple' then otherwise?

I guess "regular" a is more common (it's pronounced like in English "spa" i.e. the German a).

We have back vowels a, o, u; front vowels ä, ö, y and mid-vowels i, e. Because of our vowel harmony a non-compound word can use only mid-vowels and either front or back vowels.

A, o, u and ä, ö, y are like counterparts respectively; in suffixes you choose between the front vowel or back vowel depending on if the word has front or back vowels. Because hypätä is a front-vowel word there was so many ä's in my examples.

For the record:
o is the same as German o, like in English "pot"
u is the same as German u, quite like in English "root" but shorter
ö is the same as German ö, somewhat like in English "early" but shorter (and try not to pronounce r)
y is the same as German ü, quite like in English "dude"
and ä is NOT the German ä, but English "cat"