What are the next lost lanuages?

[Verbose]

In Finnish we haven't got that rich nouns and adjectives but there is something similar with our verbs.

Take for example verb hypätä = to jump
Hypähtää is derived from that and it implies that the jump is small and sudden.
Hypähdellä is the same but there are several small sudden jumps and the jumper might move from place to place as result.
Hypellä is derived from hypätä and means to make several jumps that are probably not as small or sudden as in hypähdellä.
Hyppelehtiä is derived from the previous one, it means mostly the same as hypähdellä but there is certainly a difference in the nuance, but I just can't find a way to translate it, other than that the duration of action in hyppelehtiä is likely longer than hypähdellä.

Those are at least ones that can well be used in practice without sounding weird at all, and there are more. In addition I can construct words like hyppelehdiskellä that are perfectly correct forms that a native can comprehend even when they are a bit too complex to actually use.

And besides nuances, the meanings can be changed with modifying the verb. While hypähtää was to make a small sudden jump, hypähdyttää is to make someone to make a small sudden jump. And you can derive from that hypähdytellä, which implies that it is done occassionally (or in some context, as hardly paying attention to the deed). Perfectly understandable for a native (in context) but a major pain to translate. In theory (no way in practice) you could further modify it infinitely like hypähdytätätellä = to make someone occasionally to make someone other to make someone else to make someone to make a small sudden jump, or hypähdytellätätytellellyttää.

But on the other hand — and this is said on the trust of what a Finnish girl once told me, when comparing her native Finnish and Swedish — while all this tremendous detail is going on, in Finnish it can often be left to context exactly WHO is jumping, or as she put it:

"In Finnish a lot of things just happen. Swedish is soooo complicated because you have this analy retentive fixation with always specifying who is doing things."

 

[Verbose]

It does work fine, but I don't really think anyone who hasn't been fluent in more than 1 language is going to get the "different languages allow people to express themselves in different ways" argument.

That's likely very true. It would seem the "monolinguals" tend to regard language as pretty much a transparent medium, making individual ones more or less interchangeable.

Learning a second one tends to make people discover the not-so-necessary quirks of their first one.

Or as emperor Charlemagne put it:
"To have another language is to possess a second soul."

 

[holy king]

he said that? heck, we dont even know what language was his mother tongue.

 

[Winner]

It does work fine, but I don't really think anyone who hasn't been fluent in more than 1 language is going to get the "different languages allow people to express themselves in different ways" argument.

Languages evolve with the society. Sometimes I think that Czech has been constructed in a way which fosters humour and irony. Might have something to do with the fact that humour was the pricipal way of dealing with centuries of foreign rule.

One example: when Franz Joseph I. visited Prague in 1901, the Czech newspapers published a picture of him on Charles Bridge with a line "Walk on the bridge" - "Procházka na mostě". Since then, the old emperor was called "Franz Procházka" since "Procházka" was one of the most common Czech surnames

 

[raketooy]

But on the other hand — and this is said on the trust of what a Finnish girl once told me, when comparing her native Finnish and Swedish — while all this tremendous detail is going on, in Finnish it can often be left to context exactly WHO is jumping, or as she put it:

"In Finnish a lot of things just happen. Swedish is soooo complicated because you have this analy retentive fixation with always specifying who is doing things."

At least in first and second persons we can just omit the pronoun, but then the person is evident in the verb inflection. We probably use the passive voice (where the sentence has no subject and the underlying subject isn't evident from the inflection) a lot in sentences that would be active in English or Swedish.

In Swedish you have this "man gör någonting" where the "man" isn't really any person. Our equivalent is the passive and I've understood that it is used also in places where the "man" construction wouldn't be correct in Swedish. So the passive of hypätä (to jump) would be hypätään, which just tells you that somebody is jumping, without information of who is jumping and how many jumpers there are (although it kinda implies, but not strictly, that there are more than one). In speech the simple sentence "Hypätään." usually gets a special meaning "Let's jump."

For example the sentence "Siellä hypätään." translates to "Some people (or could be animals as well) are jumping there." This would be used, though, if they are about to make a single jump. If you want to say that they are jumping more than once you'd use the related verb hyppiä, and the sentence would be "Siellä hypitään." This distinction is something that most verbs don't have though. Strictly literally "Some people are jumping there." would become "Jotkut ihmiset hyppivät siellä." but it sounds a bit technical.

I'm not that fluent in Swedish but I think I can agree with the girl.

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_voice#The_fourth_person_in_Baltic-Finnic_languages

 

[Mirc]

At least in first and second persons we can just omit the pronoun, but then the person is evident in the verb inflection.

That's quite common in many languages around the world, I mentioned it actually in this thread. It's called a [wiki]null-subject language[/wiki]. My language is also null-subject.

 

[LucyDuke]

It does work fine, but I don't really think anyone who hasn't been fluent in more than 1 language is going to get the "different languages allow people to express themselves in different ways" argument.

Your standard's a little high, I think. I've certainly never been even close to "fluent" in Spanish - I think my high school Spanish was a lot better than the average American teenager's (outside of Miami or San Diego, anyway), but no native speaker would've mistaken me for one. I've got a pretty damn good grasp on the types of nuances afforded by different languages, though. Might just be because I study that stuff particularly, but anyway you're writing too much off.

Might have something to do with the fact that humour was the pricipal way of dealing with centuries of foreign rule.

To be fair, I don't know one word of Czech, so I haven't got any specifics to base this on, but I can't imagine Czech's inherently more humorous than language x. Humor is a great way for any people to deal with any hardship. English has allowed for a lot of humor too. And Dutch! Can't imagine what those poor folks would do if they couldn't crack jokes about themselves. Most languages are pretty damn rich, and what's done with them is a matter of what people do with them, not how they're inherently different.

 

[warpus]

Your standard's a little high, I think. I've certainly never been even close to "fluent" in Spanish - I think my high school Spanish was a lot better than the average American teenager's (outside of Miami or San Diego, anyway), but no native speaker would've mistaken me for one. I've got a pretty damn good grasp on the types of nuances afforded by different languages, though. Might just be because I study that stuff particularly, but anyway you're writing too much off.

See, I don't really think that you do, unless you moved to a Spanish-speaking community and lived there for a while.

A classroom setting is going to teach you the language, but it's not going to teach you all those things you're going to pick up as you interact with people from that culture on a day to day basis.

 

[LucyDuke]

See, I don't really think that you do, unless you moved to a Spanish-speaking community and lived there for a while.

A classroom setting is going to teach you the language, but it's not going to teach you all those things you're going to pick up as you interact with people from that culture on a day to day basis.

For what it's worth, I lived with three different Ecuadorian exchange students for the better part of six weeks on each of three occasions. It sure wasn't living in Toledo for ten years, but I'm not pulling "better than average" out of my ass. Spending all your afternoons and evenings socially with Spanish students and native speakers goes a lot further than fifteen minutes of nightly written homework.

But it's beside my point anyway, I'm only saying that I absolutely think someone can "get it" without dual-fluency. Maybe not have a ready-to-reference example of any particular inconsistency, but the concept isn't beyond the grasp of us poor monoglots.

 

[warpus]

For what it's worth, I lived with three different Ecuadorian exchange students for the better part of six weeks on each of three occasions. It sure wasn't living in Toledo for ten years, but I'm not pulling "better than average" out of my ass. Spending all your afternoons and evenings socially with Spanish students and native speakers goes a lot further than fifteen minutes of nightly written homework.

But it's beside my point anyway, I'm only saying that I absolutely think someone can "get it" without dual-fluency. Maybe not have a ready-to-reference example of any particular inconsistency, but the concept isn't beyond the grasp of us poor monoglots.

Yeah, it's def. possible, I just saw a bunch of people in this thread not really getting it.. and I (possibly wrongly) assumed that they were monolingual and/or poor mongolots

 

[El Koeno]

... And Dutch! Can't imagine what those poor folks would do if they couldn't crack jokes about themselves. ...

I have no sense of humour whatsoever, and I get by just fine, thank you.

 

[TheLastOne36]

edit: wrong thread...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Esperanto.

 

[holy king]

esperanto never was alive, and if it was it was like that deformed frog from the simpsons that just kept saying "KILL ME!".

 

[Cato the Elder]

esperanto never was alive, and if it was it was like that deformed frog from the simpsons that just kept saying "KILL ME!".

Do you watch The Simpsons in English or German?

If you watched it in German first, do you still have any real preference for the English voices? I know that I personally have a sincere dislike for The Simpsons in other languages, but it's possible that that's more a question of what you're used to.

 

[holy king]

i'm quite used to watching them in german but their english voices are ok with me.

 

[gangleri2001]

esperanto never was alive,

WRONG!

Esperanto IS alive. It has native speakers.

 

[holy king]

what? they still havent mercy killed it?

 

[warpus]

Do you watch The Simpsons in English or German?

If you watched it in German first, do you still have any real preference for the English voices? I know that I personally have a sincere dislike for The Simpsons in other languages, but it's possible that that's more a question of what you're used to.

I used to watch Alf in Germany, which is dubbed.. I still think that the original English voices sound wrong. horribly wrong.

 

[Bill3000]

WRONG!

Esperanto IS alive. It has native speakers.

200 speakers hardly count