What Changes Should the New Civs get in the Fall Patch?

[SnowKomodo]

I think Germany needs to change. I don't know how, but they need a change

 

[Arachnofiend]

I agree with everybody that the Kris Swordsman needs to change.

There are too many dice rolls that it's not even fun playing them

But it's hilarious because in Gods and Kings going up to Iron Working was the biggest risk with the smallest reward in the game. As Indonesia you get to relive this beautiful nostalgia!

 

[OmniPotent42]

I think if they got rid of the 'demotions' on the Kris Swordsman it would be fine.

 

[SnowKomodo]

Twist on the OP question:

What three civs require overhauls/minor tweaks/changes the most?

I say Germany, Japan and Indonesia

 

[otaman1]

Twist on the OP question:

What three civs require overhauls/minor tweaks/changes the most?

I say Germany, Japan and Indonesia

Japan, Netherlands, and China

 

[SnowKomodo]

Japan, Netherlands, and China

I've heard of Japan gripes but never China. What part of their UA/UU/UB do you find weak?

 

[The QC]

They are the only civ completely dependent on a select few map types (even Polynesia gets its benefits despite the map)

I'm pretty tired of this comment. Really, do you only play Pangaea maps? Because that's the only type of map where you might be unable to use the Indonesian UA. Otherwise there are always islands or other continents.

 

[andymant]

You know, Japan doesn't seem as crappy to me as everyone makes it. Warmongering with them is pretty fun, Samurai while boring are pretty strong in that era, and the UA makes them really annoying to kill completely. I do think they need some sort of late game culture buff to reflect their historical significance, something like additional culture with broadcast towers or something. I think adding this to their UA would not OP them in anyway so much as open up some options, versatility. I think also adding some flavor to the UUs or replacing the Zero with a UB would go a long way towards improving them but they are not completely unplayable IMO. Down in the bottom tier sure, but not the worst.

 

[SnowKomodo]

I'm pretty tired of this comment. Really, do you only play Pangaea maps? Because that's the only type of map where you might be unable to use the Indonesian UA. Otherwise there are always islands or other continents.

I play water maps quite regularly. (Actually, I almost never play Pangaea maps) I tried Continents and Continents Plus with Indonesia, but those didn't work out. So then I tried Small Continents. It worked once, but the other 3 or 4 times on small continents it was a complete disaster in finding a place to settle. I have yet to try the large islands map. Archipelago map is the only one where I've had a 100% success rate with the UA - compare that to the other terrain dependent civs where you have a much larger variety of maps where you guarantee success. Basically, if archipelago is the only map I've had success with, I reserve the right to my opinion to be underwhelmed since archipelago is already a much slower, easier, dryer and generally less interesting game compared to land maps.

Anyway, I think you missed the point: It's not the UA that I think needs changing. It's the UU in wake of the map specific UA. Does that make sense?

Think of it this way: You will literally almost never use the Kris on maps where the UA is favorable. The UB Candi is also more rare. On maps where the Kris and Candi are favorable, the UA is not. So why make the Kris such a huge gamble when there are already variables in the UA and UB? Tweaking the UU makes the civ better and more versatile without actually overpowering it - I don't see why anybody would be opposed to that.

 

[SnowKomodo]

You know, Japan doesn't seem as crappy to me as everyone makes it. Warmongering with them is pretty fun, Samurai while boring are pretty strong in that era, and the UA makes them really annoying to kill completely. I do think they need some sort of late game culture buff to reflect their historical significance, something like additional culture with broadcast towers or something. I think adding this to their UA would not OP them in anyway so much as open up some options, versatility. I think also adding some flavor to the UUs or replacing the Zero with a UB would go a long way towards improving them but they are not completely unplayable IMO. Down in the bottom tier sure, but not the worst.

Yeah I never had a huge problem with Japan, but with all the war civs I'm happy to jump on the change Japan bandwagon because it really truly is a pretty bland civ overall. And the devs threw out that interesting isolationist possibility for the fall patch. I think everybody would love that

But it's Germany that I have problems with. More of a taste thing though. I have trouble figuring out how to tweak Germany without overhauling them. I threw the idea of having the option of whether or not you want to take the barbarian instead of it being 50/50, but if not I also thought it would be nice to get 1 free promotion upon taking a barb. But in general I just don't like the barbarian aspect so I would like a Civ overhaul a la France where Germany receives perhaps production and science bonuses tied into war elements

 

[The QC]

Anyway, I think you missed the point: It's not the UA that I think needs changing. It's the UU in wake of the map specific UA. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I can understand that. They do seem hard to use together. I haven't actually tried Indonesia yet, so I guess I am not well attuned to their specific issues. The Assyrians, which I'm trying to perfect at the moment, certainly are very different from what they seemed.

What I was getting at is that I always find small islands even on Continents maps... Often even without needing to explore the ocean. They don't seem that hard to settle before somebody else, though of course I never tried. Do you find these to not be valuable enough? Or are they rarer than they seem to me? Or do you simply miss out on using the Kris Swordsman while settling them?

Byzantium in G&K had a similar problem, with their uniques all competing for attention in the same time space.

 

[Kiwi Tyrant]

Polands maintenance free UB should not give 1 gold per pasture.

 

[VainoValkea]

Poland could use a slight bash of the nerf hammer, and I would change all Kris abilities to be of the kind "major bonus, minor penalty" because those are often the most interesting in the gameplay point of view. Morocco's UA could scale with era to keep it relevant.

 

[JustinianIV]

Some of the older civs had the rug pulled out from under them by later changes. For example Germany's cheap spam Landsknecht now upgrades into a less favorable unit, changes to the combat formulas have made Bushido less useful, India got affected by the increased per city unhappiness (although food trade routes are a buff to them).

Yes, I think this is what has been why I feel the Shoshone needed to be nerved; because the older civs needed a buff.

I think it wouldn't hurt to err on the side of buffing rather than nerving. Shoshone are now within my top 5, and even though I was calling for them to be nerved, it would hurt me a little inside.

With that in mind, they can just do little tweeks that make sense thematically and game-play wise. Germany can stay as they are but get a free GE every era after Renaissance. Or something.

 

[Securion]

Germany, Japan, America, Denmark and Byzantium could use a complete remake or one or two big buffs of some sort.

 

[tat501]

I actually enjoy Germany the way they are. I'll be upset if they get changed too much. I love having the cheap early army afforded by Furor Teutonicus - it lets you focus on infrastructure in your early core cities and there's the historical element of being a roving set of bloody barbarians annoying everyone else at that point - which matures into a huge landsknecht wielding force in the middle ages and then you calm down and tech to Panzers and roll out a blitzkrieg! Whats not to like?

 

[otaman1]

I've heard of Japan gripes but never China. What part of their UA/UU/UB do you find weak?

I dunno. I just don't like their UA.

 

[tat501]

Japan's UA always seemed weak after the change from 10hp to 100.

 

[The QC]

Japan's UA always seemed weak after the change from 10hp to 100.

If my understanding of what happened is correct, it's not just that. They were secretly de-buffed. See, the UA doesn't actually do what it says - wounded units don't deal full damage. The bonus is capped to a maximum of 33% of the unit's strength. So, a unit that is at 67% health will deal full damage, but a unit that is at 1% health will deal 34% of the unit's full strength damage. This was the case in vanilla as well, but the cap was higher, at 50%. For some reason the developers decided to nerf them in G&K...

In my opinion, the Japanese UA would be quite cool, if it actually did what it says.

 

[Brugarin]

I wish for a buff to the russian cossaks and their UA. I mean, nowadays Russia seems to be like a really lame, unexciting version of Poland to me.