What countries are represented here?

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
if wales isn't a country then neither is england.

Never said England was a country. Don't know where you got the assumption from.

Originally posted by phoenix_night
my passport says:
Nationality: Welsh
btw.

A convincing argument from your passport.

Although I'm sure you are Welsh. You seem to be convinced of it yourself.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Gainy bo
"So I wouldn't say wales is a country"

Would you say wales is part of england then? If not, what........

Hamlet is an idiot.

to suggest the lack of sovereignty means a country no longer exists is simply ridiclous. when was england last a sovereign state?

we have a national anthem, flag, language, sports teams and welsh is a nationality. how you can possibly claim wales is not a country is simply beyond belief and most insulting.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Hamlet

Although I'm sure you are Welsh. You seem to be convinced of it yourself.

what?

on another note, are you suggesting wales, scotland, northern ireland and england fail to exist as countries?

that all the people in theses 'regions' are united under the union jack?

or maybe i should just ask, are you insane?

 

[Pangur Bán]

The problem is that England and the UK are political the same political entities in historical terms. England didn't change its name upon conquest of Wales, but the name changed when Scotland was annexed in 1707 and again when Ireland was formally annexed at the beginning of the 19th century. Officially, Wales was part of England and originally the Anglo-Welsh settlers in cities like Cardiff were thought of as English. But Scotland and Ireland always had their separate status acknowledged.

Having said that, the welsh Welsh were always thought of as foreigners and never regarded as English in real terms.

Today there is a clear separation between England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland based on geography, even if those do not apply so clearly in historical terms.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by calgacus
The problem is that England and the UK are political the same political entities

no, they're not.

wales existed long before england, as did the welsh before the english. wales was conquered by england and so lost its foreign voice and sovereignty but it remained a very different country. the people were always welsh. wales is not an anglo-saxon country btw. the welsh never considered themselves part of england (after original defeat followed centuries of revolutions and wars for independence, which were actually succesful).

people from this side of the border have always been welsh - regardless of who held power over the land.

 

[rilnator]

The country that makes the best sportsmen and best red wine- Australia!

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by phoenix_night


no, they're not.

wales existed long before england, as did the welsh before the english. wales was conquered by england and so lost its foreign voice and sovereignty but it remained a very different country. the people were always welsh. wales is not an anglo-saxon country btw. the welsh never considered themselves part of england (after original defeat followed centuries of revolutions and wars for independence, which were actually succesful).

people from this side of the border have always been welsh - regardless of who held power over the land.

You replied too quickly, I had changed my wording immediately.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
Hamlet is an idiot.

to suggest the lack of sovereignty means a country no longer exists is simply ridiclous. when was england last a sovereign state?

You are confusing 'nation' with 'country' perhaps I didn't make this clear enough in my definition

A country is geographical area that a state has soverignty over. A nation is something much more strong and full, and encompasses that idea of 'culture'. A nation is a group of people who share a common set of historical, cultural, blah, blah, and you get the picture. They do not have to rely on statehood for this sense of being. It is entirely free from such constraints.

Originally posted by phoenix_night
we have a national anthem, flag, language, sports teams and welsh is a nationality.

No, you have a language which is spoken by a minority of the population, and the other things you menetion are completely superficial and irrelevant to any contributions of nationhood.

The Welsh language is not spoken by a majority, or anywhere approaching a majority of 'Welsh' people. This tells us something, and it is a good place to start from for our analysis.

For staters, Wales never achieved anything apporaching a real cultural, legal or political homogenity, so the basis for saying that the overarching majority of people within the geograpgical area of Wales are and have always been definetley, distinctly and assuredly 'Welsh' is ridiculous to begin with.

Over time, also, Wales has steadily suffered or benefited from, depending on your interpretation, a steady Anglasication of itself.

So, Wales inherits almost all of it's political, legal, and much of it's cultural framework from England - much more so than Ireland or Scotland ever did. The Welsh langugage itself is still only a very small and obscure tongue, despite it's revivial of late, and despite Welsh nationalists attempts to actively seek it's revivial.

The Anglasication has steadily meant that a lot of areas of wales have basically become English in all but name, and 'Welshness' has become irrelevant - English people are still migrating to Wales in fairly substantial numbers, as they have done for centuries. This particularly applies to the eastern border areas, and the industrialised South, where The Conservatives and Labour respectively have done very well historically, and where Plaid Cymru has never really sractched the surface.

Now, a large portion of Wales has really been effectively drained of having any real sense of nationality on a real level. The areas that are still very much areas of The Welsh nation are the areas in the rural areas of the East and North East, where Plaid Cymru attracts it's biggest share of the vote - which is still fairly small within Wales as a whole.

Thus, these areas are very much the bastions of Welsh nationality at the present time. Nationality elsewhere within Wales is blurred to a large extent. I would say with confidence that The Welsh nation exists in these said areas, but elsewhere, I would say no, it doesn't. It cannot, based on the cultural affinities of the people within those areas, who are simply more English than Welsh.


Incidentally, the very reason why Irish and Scottish nationalism survived as such a much more healthy force is because of the greater senses of national identity that grew and were maintained there - and still does in Ireland, parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland - to a much greater extent than Wales ever could. This obviously goes a long way to explaining the divergent political paths of Scotland, Wales and Ireland over the centuries, also.

Originally posted by phoenix_night
how you can possibly claim wales is not a country is simply beyond belief and most insulting.

I don't believe I've ever claimed there isn't a Welsh nation, simply that your idea that The Welsh nation entirely covers the area that we geograhically call 'Wales' is absurd. It has been for centuries. See above.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
on another note, are you suggesting wales, scotland, northern ireland and england fail to exist as countries?

As countries, yes, they don't exist as seperate state jurisdictions, as nations within The UK, no, they do exist.

Originally posted by phoenix_night
that all the people in theses 'regions' are united under the union jack?

'Britishness' has always seemed quite artifical to me.

Oh, and as for suggestions about my mental health - you have been quite uanble to recognise fact from fiction on more than one occassion, once aruging, if memory serves, that most Welsh people were in favour of indepedance, which is such unmitigated tosh I can hardly stand it.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Hamlet

No, you have a language which is spoken by a minority of the population

yes, we have a lagnguage. i did not make any statement about the number of speakers of it.

Originally posted by Hamlet

within the geograpgical area of Wales are definetley and assuredly 'Welsh' is ridiculous to begin with.

this is such a stupid comment, you can not honestly be serious.

Originally posted by Hamlet

Over time, also, Wales has steadily suffered or benefited from,

The Anglasication has steadily meant that a lot of areas of wales have basically become English in all but name, and 'Welshness' has become irrelevant

this is so blatantly untrue. how can you possibly make such a statement is beyond me. nobody could possible agree with you here.

Originally posted by Hamlet

Now, a large portion of Wales has really been effectively drained of having any real sense of nationality on a real level.

this is madness....such a foolish thing to say....i'm schocked at this, this is not the case at all at completely beyond belief

Originally posted by Hamlet

I don't believe I've ever claimed there isn't a Welsh nation, simply that your idea that The Welsh nation entirely covers the area that we geograhically call 'Wales' is absurd. It has been for centuries. See above.

this is the most ridiclous post i have ever read. it is totally unfounded, makes no sense at all, it's just incredibly stupid....i don't know what to describe it as...laughable....

but a stupid comment from a british nationalist (or english).

people over the entire geographical area of wales are incredibly patriotic, and not for britain and certainly not england. people here are far more proud to be welsh than the english are of their nationality.

i am amzed at your comments, sheer madness...

 

[Hamlet]

Ah yes. It's the old nonsense to the fore again. Just call it all rubbish, and make no attempt to refute it on any level. Such maturity.

And I am not a British or English nationalist. My patriotism is healthy, but it is not undying, and it is certainly not extreme and indulgent.

The very fact that you brand my fairly objective and reasoned analysis the obvious works of a deranged Nationalist boot-stomper say more about your mentality than I ever could.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Over time, also, Wales has steadily suffered or benefited from,

The Anglasication has steadily meant that a lot of areas of wales have basically become English in all but name, and 'Welshness' has become irrelevant

phoenix_night, Hamlet is not denying the existence of a Welsh nation, he is only denying that all of the area officially designated as Wales is genuinely Welsh.

But the Welsh are a nation, although this nation does not dominate modern "Wales". Genuine Welsh culture is so old and distinctive that it is impossible to defend the belief that real historical Welshness exists throughout modern Wales.

I think I have seen many threads like this where misunderstanding and failure to understand this kind of view properly has caused unnecessary insult and flaming.

 

[phoenix_night]

@Hamlet,
you claimed there is a lack of national identity throughout wales. that people don't consider themselves welsh these days. well this is rubbish, and i suspect you actually know this, regardless of what you say in this thread.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
@Hamlet,
you claimed there is a lack of national identity throughout wales. that people don't consider themselves welsh these days. well this is rubbish, and i suspect you actually know this, regardless of what you say in this thread.

Again, a complete hot-headed falsehood. Never did I say there wasn't a Welsh nation. Never did I directly attack, demean or insult it.

I said that parts of Wales were obviously 'Welsh', other parts were obviously 'English', and others were in between, and that the parts that are distinctly and patently 'Welsh' are in something of the minority in all that.

I have yet to see you actually refute any of this on a logical or rational basis.

And no, saying "You're just saying this to troll and you don't really mean it!" is not a good excuse for having no adequate counter-arguement.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by calgacus


phoenix_night, Hamlet is not denying the existence of a Welsh nation, he is only denying that all of the area officially designated as Wales is genuinely Welsh.

But the Welsh are a nation, although this nation does not dominate modern "Wales". Genuine Welsh culture is so old and distinctive that it is impossible to defend the belief that real historical Welshness exists throughout modern Wales.

I think I have seen many threads like this where misunderstanding and failure to understand this kind of view properly has caused unnecessary insult and flaming.

i am not claiming there is a great cultural difference throughout the uk, just that people from wales are welsh, people from england are english and people from scotland are scottish, as people from northern ireland are irish.

to suggest some parts of wales are not considered welsh, thats where i'm lost....
people on this side of the border are welsh wherever they may be.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by phoenix_night


i am not claiming there is a great cultural difference throughout the uk, just that people from wales are welsh, people from england are english and people from scotland are scottish, as people from northern ireland are irish.

to suggest some parts of wales are not considered welsh, thats where i'm lost....
people on this side of the border are welsh wherever they may be.

Then, you probably don't regard the Welsh as a cultural group but as the inhabitants of an arbitrary area on the map?

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
i am not claiming there is a great cultural difference throughout the uk, just that people from wales are welsh, people from england are english and people from scotland are scottish, as people from northern ireland are irish.

to suggest some parts of wales are not considered welsh, thats where i'm lost....
people on this side of the border are welsh wherever they may be.

By that logic, someone living on the English side of the border would be English, and someone living 25 feet away on the Welsh side would be Welsh.

It's as superficial as that, huh?

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Hamlet

I said that parts of Wales were obviously 'Welsh', other parts were obviously 'English', and others were in between, and that the parts that are distinctly and patently 'Welsh' are in something of the minority in all that.

this is what i don't understand. what do you mean when you claim parts of wales to be 'english'?

Originally posted by Hamlet

By that logic, someone living on the English side of the border would be English, and someone living 25 feet away on the Welsh side would be Welsh.

It's as superficial as that, huh?

obviously.

so if i'm born 25 feet inside the french border, am i superficially french, but really speaking Spanish?

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
this is what i don't understand. what do you mean when you claim parts of wales to be 'english'?

They don't feel themselves to be Welsh, and they feel themselves to be English. Hence, they chose to be English, because that is where they feel their national affinities lie. What part of this don't you understand?

Or are you going to dredge up Mr President's authoritarian and quasi-imperialistic 'Your individual choice is irrelevant in considerations of nationality' argument?

Originally posted by phoenix_night
obviously.

so if i'm born 25 feet inside the french border, am i superficially french, but really speaking Spanish?

If you can't accept that national idenitity is based on culture, then there's no point in having this discussion.

But I shall put this to you: All the kurds living in Iran, Turkey and Iraq have no right to believe that they are anything other than Iranians, Turks, and Iraqis?

Be aware: that's what you're saying at the moment.

And if you do believe that nationality is based on culture, then show me how everybody in Wales subscribes to an overarching 'Welshness', as you have so far claimed.

 

[Sanscizo]

I am Welsh, I am from Cardiff, and certainly Cardiff feels like a very English place.

However to say that Wales has very little national identity is very wrong, the Welsh people are very patriotic as a whole, and this can be seen when you watch an international rugby game in the Millenium stadium. It brings a tear to my eye when I'm there inside the stadium with evrybody singing the national anthem. It's incredible. Sport is the best way to unite a nation in my opinion.

I am not really an avidly Welsh person, I don't criticise the English at every possible opportunity or speak the language fluently, but when it comes to defending my country I am very patriotic and so are almost all the Welsh people I know.

So Hamlet you have a point, but I do believe that Welsh people are very patriotic and proud of their country, whether they live ten minutes away from England or completely on the other side of Wales. As do most races, cultures and countries