What countries are represented here?

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Hamlet

They don't feel themselves to be Welsh, and they feel themselves to be English. Hence, they chose to be English, because that is where they feel their national affinities lie. What part of this don't you understand?

i see what you mean. it's not true though.

i remember now....you were arguing with MrPresident and maybe some others about nationality in another thread....saying people get to choose theirs and so on. this is not the case.

it seems you have brought your ideas from that thread to this one. suggesting that because people in wales speak english and share a culture with the english that they are effectively the same thing....because of course, nationality isn't simply where you were born (or your parents nationality) is it? well it is.

i wish i had remembered this earlier on. fact is, you don't choose your nationality.

it is clear (from that other thread) that you have quite a different view of exactly what nationality is to the rest of the world.

hmm...who do i listen to....Hamlet?....rest of the world?

you yourself do not have the power do decide you don't like the definition of nationality and so to change it.

your argument collapses!

i choose to go by the actual definition of nationality, not yours. people don't choose it you know, whether you like it or not. whatever your views may be - i know see where your argument comes from, but it is seriously flawed.

nationality= where you were born/nationality of parents
not cultural alignment.

well that's that then.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
well that's that then.

So Kurds have no right to believe in a seperate state for themselves, and indeed, have no claim to nationhood.

That's cleared that up then. Let's just take international politics back about a hundred years.

Have you ever heard of something called 'Self-determination'? You see, it's the generally accepted principle by which people chose their nationality.

The fact is, you are remarkably ignorant on this whole issue, which is probably partially a result of your age, and indeed, ignorant of political issues as a whole, and I refuse to lower myself to your level of debate any longer.

Oh, and btw, you've competely defeated your own argument; you now have no more basis for believing in Wales having an indepedant state, because you were born within the 'fixed' boundaries of The UK, and all that that implies. You don't have any basis to decide you don't like your state and puruse your own national idenitity.

Sorry to break it to you.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Hamlet

me how everybody in Wales subscribes to an overarching 'Welshness', as you have so far claimed.

what claim was that? i don't recall saying there was a great cultural difference between the two countries.

Originally posted by Sanscizo
Cardiff feels like a very English place.

i think this is the root of Hamlet's differing opinion.

Wales is next door to england. if you go to Cardiff, people there will speak english (Cardiff is a majority english speaking county). you will see the same shops. eat the same foods. see cultural similarities. but to suggest this means wales is merely an extension of england is incorrect. this does not mean Cardiff is an 'english' part of wales. i go to ninian park every week to watch Cardiff play, and just to go to the city in general. there is no doubt the people there are firmly welsh, as they are throughout wales.

what next? is brazil just portugal? is austria just germany?

can we group england, wales, scotland, ireland, northern ireland, australia, new zealand, the usa and more together as one 'england' - i mean they all speak english, right?

they all have a mcdonald's too, so why not? i mean if this is the case they're hardly different countries are they...

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
what claim was that? i don't recall saying there was a great cultural difference between the two countries.

No, nationality issues within Wales.

Originally posted by phoenix_night
there is no doubt the people there are firmly welsh, as they are throughout wales.

On what do you base that? You've just said they are effectively English in character. So how are they 'Welsh' anymore than a bona fide English person?

Have you asked them how much they feel English, and how much they feel Welsh?

 

[phoenix_night]

@Hamlet,
when your born, get a passport or whatever, you don't 'choose' a nationality. you already have one (or in some cases more).

i was born in the uk. in wales to be accurate. hardly defeats my argument. i'm still welsh. i have dual nationality (welsh/british (or citizen of uk)), i choose to be welsh first. wales is my country.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Hamlet

On what do you base that? You've just said they are effectively English in character.

ha! there you go again. if i learn spanish and open a tappas bar, am i no longer welsh but in fact spanish?

Originally posted by Hamlet

Have you asked them how much they feel English, and how much they feel Welsh?

i was at the welsh match a couple of weeks back. when you have 70,000 welshmen standing while singing 'stand up if you hate england' the question 'do you consider yourself english?' never really comes to mind.



your argument is so ridiclous. people in wales consider themselves welsh. with the increasing impact of american entertainment and culture on the western world why don't you just give up on being 'british' and call yourself an american?

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
i was born in the uk. in wales to be accurate. hardly defeats my argument. i'm still welsh.

Your Welsh according to you. Correct?

If I said you were English, you would reject that?

How is this in any way nothing more than a vindication of the idea that people chose their national idenitity?

Under your argument, you would have no basis for saying you were anything other than whatever you were legally told you were. If not, then how does one determine national idenitity?

Oh, and could you please answer my point about differing nationalities such as Irish people in NI, Kurds in Turkey, etc. within states, ta.

If those people don't chose to be part of another idenitity than the one they were born into, legally, then what are they doing? Is this action of theirs unjustified? it is according to you.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
ha! there you go again. if i learn spanish and open a tappas bar, am i no longer welsh but in fact spanish?

Have you chosen Spanish as your national identity?

Err, no.

Have I said nationality is achieved by any other means than personal choice?

No.

Then whose argument are you refering to here? the man in the moon's?

Originally posted by phoenix_night
your argument is so ridiclous. people in wales consider themselves welsh.

So you can't adequately answer that on any reasoanble level. Okay.

Originally posted by phoenix_night
with the increasing impact of american entertainment and culture on the western world why don't you just give up on being 'british' and call yourself an american?

BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO. I CHOSE 'ENGLISH' AS MY NATIONALITY.

WHICH PART OF THIS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Hamlet

Your Welsh according to you. Correct?

yes.

Originally posted by Hamlet

If I said you were English, you would reject that?

yes.

Originally posted by Hamlet

How is this in any way nothing more than a vindication of the idea that people chose their national idenitity?

you see, i can call myself welsh because i was born in wales to welsh parents. i didn't one day just decide to be welsh.

you couldn't one day just decide to be american you know. you wouldn't be (outside your own mind anyway), they wouldn't let you into the country. nationality is a legal issue.

yourdictionary.com defines nationality as:
The status of belonging to a particular nation by origin, birth, or naturalization.

i'm welsh.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
you see, i can call myself welsh because i was born in wales to welsh parents. i didn't one day just decide to be welsh.

Your above response completely betrays this. There is an element of personal choice in your decision to be Welsh, and you reject other national statuses - itself a personal decision, based on rational groudns of being culturally affiliated with a sense of 'Welshness'.

I still don't see how you've rebutted my idea by which people are free to chose their national status.

People will ususally affliate with the group the national group they were born into. But I see no reason to deny a person the ability to change that should they so wish. that's horribly authoritarian.

Originally posted by phoenix_night
nationality is a legal issue.

Wrong. Nations are completely independant of states and legal considerations. I'm sure at some point Wales was not recognised as a legal nationality under English law. Did that make people 'not Welsh'?

there is a thing called a 'political dictionary' this is what is used when we discuss these terms:

http://www.iamericanspirit.com/politicaldictionary.html

Look up 'N'.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Hamlet

Your above response completely betrays this. There is an element of personal choice in your decision to be Welsh, and you reject other national statuses

the point is, i have every right to call myself welsh, i didn't simply choose to be so one day. i don't see how it completely betrays anything i have said.

nothing you have said (including the dictionary) changes the fact that i am welsh or the fact that wales is welsh. i think you take your interpretation of the definition a little too far. the fact is, in the uk there are clear boundaries seperating the nations. the majority of people in the english part are english, the scottish part scottish, northern irish part irish and the same can be said for wales.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Hamlet

Have I said nationality is achieved by any other means than personal choice?

No.

well there then - welsh people (as in born in the country, or with welsh parents) wouldn't consider themselves english or british but welsh.

they choose to be welsh. so what's your problem?

 

[D' Artagnan]

Please, this is getting WAY off-topic.
Feel free to start a thread about Wales being a country or not. But this is not the place to argue about it.

Btw, to me Wales is a region of the uk with a slightly different culture from england.

 

[Sanscizo]

Nationality is in the head more than in the bones.

If you see yourself as being thoroughly Welsh then as long as you have a connection there then you are very much Welsh in my opinion. It is nobody's right to deny somebody else's national identity.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by D' Artagnan
Please, this is getting WAY off-topic.
Feel free to start a thread about Wales being a country or not. But this is not the place to argue about it.

Btw, to me Wales is a region of the uk with a slightly different culture from england.

it's just people from the uk tend to think of them as countries as oppose to regions. besides, i'm not driving this to OT, i am simply defending my country.

 

[Sanscizo]

Originally posted by D' Artagnan
Please, this is getting WAY off-topic.
Feel free to start a thread about Wales being a country or not. But this is not the place to argue about it.

Btw, to me Wales is a region of the uk with a slightly different culture from england.

I think this example of off-topic behavoir is acceptable. It is a legitimate and interesting argument and it is certainly not spam in my opinion. I think it should continue until it's resolved in some way, interesting stuff.

 

[addiv]

Make a thread about Wales being a country or not, as said before. This thread is not the place for a discussion like this

 

[Grille]

Originally posted by Sanscizo


I think this example of off-topic behavoir is acceptable. It is a legitimate and interesting argument and it is certainly not spam in my opinion. I think it should continue until it's resolved in some way, interesting stuff.

Not just interesting, but also pretty much dotty. I like that. Very British.

 

[Sanscizo]

Originally posted by Grille

Not just interesting, but also pretty much dotty. I like that. Very British.

Ah, how very stereotypical you are, my German friend.

 

[Sparkle]

I´m from Prague, now go take your maps and find where it is
And: we don´t have any war here )