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[BTS] What do you do with first Great Scientist?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Major Tom, Jan 10, 2020.

?

What to do with him/her

Poll closed Jan 15, 2020.
  1. Build Academy

    6 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Bulb Philosophy (if you are first)

    4 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. Save for education bulb

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Something else

    2 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Academy = +50% :science: right?

    In a city with Library, Univ. and Observatory (= +75% :science:), shouldn't my academy modify all of these buildings and give 50% reasearch on each?

    Why would the Academy only boost the research of my library?
     
  2. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    No. If you add in an academy, it's +125%:science:.
    Academy doesn't boost the research of library. Maybe I confused you when I said "double benefit of a library", simply meaning that a library is +25%, an academy is +50%.
     
  3. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Ok, I see. If my capitol makes 20 commerce and I am at 100% research, the library adds 5 beakers and the academy 10.
    I was thinking in a wrong direction like 20 commerce + library = 25 beakers + academy = +50% out of the 25 (!) beakers, so 12,5 instead of 10. As if buildings would modify each other. But that certainly doesn't work this way. I still believed that the academy would modifiy the already modified beakers once more
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
    sampsa likes this.
  4. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Note that bureau boosts commerce by 50%, so in your example it'd be 20 commerce + bureau + library = 30 commerce + library = 37,5 commerce. (Not 20*1,75=35). That's why bureau makes all :science:-modifier buildings better.
     
  5. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Ok, so base commerce is summed up first (including trade routes and tile yields), then modified by Bureau, and then modified separately by all the different research buildings according to the actual research rate.
    What about settled guys who produce beakers? Are those beakers also modified by every single research building? (but not by bureau I suppose)
     
    sampsa likes this.
  6. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Yes, they are modified by every :science:-building. Not by bureau, since bureau boosts only :commerce:.
     
    Tobiyogi likes this.
  7. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    So 9 beakers a turn vs 50%. With library even more. Of course 50% bonus assumes you are running 100% science. So if your not running scientists the bonus will be much less till you have cottages up and running. 500 beakers early on could be very valuable. It's almost a free tech. Same for maths bulb. It's a lot less than say 1800 beakers towards edu but if you get to edu 9-10 turns sooner then it's worth 2 bulbs anyway. All depends on speed. If your opting more for a war strategy then 9-12 beakers a turn is invaluable. Same for settling a priest. 5 gold and 3 science is a good boost with mids. Great generals settled also office a small but nice boost.

    It's all about te snowball effect. What adds more value settled vs academy I guess pends on your situation. If you plan to finish the game super early then the benefits are marginal. If your playing the long game then it becomes more interesting. I don't think you get any bonus on running research/wealth.

    Of course with a good war strategy you could be taking some big techs from peace. That and using capture gold to finish techs quickly.
     
  8. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Yes all bonuses are applied to settled great people. So with a library a settled scientist is worth 11.25 beakers a turn. With an academy and library 15.75 beakers a turn. This all assume mids. With Ox uni and all other bonuses late game the settle guy is worth nearly 29 beakers a turn.

    Settled scientist also gives one production too. So early on it's probably marginal which is better pending on economy. You need about 23 base science a turn to break even with academy. Probably higher once you account for turns where science may be 0% for several turns. late game when you have 50-60+ commerce the winner becomes much clearer. With OX uni even higher. If you workshop your capital then academy effect is almost zero beyond the free 8 commerce at start and impact from specialists.

    A financial leader is probably best with an academy. All this assume you quickly getting a GS and mids.
     
  9. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Academy can be really good if the capital creates the most beakers by far,
    which often happens with Bur.
    Cottage sharing and building up your future super-science city should always go hand in hand with an academy,
    while it's better to skip creating one if a map does not support that.

    They are usually better with less AIs met (Iso, semi, bad trading partners /wave Toku),
    cos then an extra boost for the way towards Optics helps more than bulbing let's say Philo (which often doesn't happen at all on (semi) Iso).
     
  10. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I had not factored in bureau for capital. Nor had I factored in bonuses from wonders on specialists. I think one offers 2 culture a turn. You can also get bonueses for priests.

    There are so many factors to consider and the average person is unlikely to do the maths. Without philosophical it would be very hard to get 2 GS that early. You also have to decide if your saving a great person for your golden age and civic changes. Which really makes spiritual quite a strong civic. To be able to change civics without anarachy or a golden age could cost you 2 turns.
     
  11. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    I know it's basic knowledge, but I was confused here.
    Settled scientist = 6 (9 with rep) beakers, 1H, no GP points
    Hired scientist = 3 (6) beakers, no hammer, 3 GP points
    Right?
    So settled rep scientist = 11,25 beakers with a library.... like Gumbolt said

    Civ 4 keeps on being complexe :)
     
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  12. SnipedSoul

    SnipedSoul Warlord

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    I tend to play big maps where I can REX like crazy. The benefit of early academy is minimal since my slider stays low for ages. I like to bulb Philo with first GS and build academy with my second.
     
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  13. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Prince

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    Philosophy in about 95% of games, as an Immortal player. There are many reasons, but the chief one is that done quickly enough it's a decent amount of guaranteed trade value and on the path to Lib and Nationalism at the same time. Done even quicker it's a guaranteed religion if such a thing is needed (Pacifism plays). One of the most efficient bulbs in the game in terms of cost/return.

    I rarely bureau cap and the only reason I wouldn't Philo bulb with 1st GS in a game is:
    1.) Astro map, where he goes toward Machinery/Optics instead. By far the most common alternative.
    2.) I'm WAY behind (can happen with lots of early war resulting in tons of land) and Philo has no value on the market, in which case he may used for a GA or bulb on better tech (Edu, Chemistry) instead for some trade value. I have even used the 1st GS on helping with SciMeth before, desperately clawing toward Communism.
    3.) Something quirky like Math bulb to Construction attack or bulb Alpha. You can get away with loads of crap if you are a PHI leader. This is where I would fit in a bureau cap play too.

    I tend to settle out as much land as possible, easily taking 10-12 cities in many of my games before running out of room which makes the relative cost/return of Bureau cap lesser (Bureau can HURT with 15+ cities, though I rarely get that high before war). It's definitely not the most efficient way to play the game nor one with most eye towards success, but I like big empires and denying land to the AI, then figuring out how to solve the problems of paying for it and teching, etc. It's how I roll, and more focus on empire-wide food+specialists+Nationhood+Pacifism tends to go along with that instead of focusing efforts around one city, even it's the best city as the capitol often is.

    Also I tend to cottage either the most appropriate city(ies) or just cottage a bit everywhere as needed/is efficient. It rarely works out that I end up with so much focus on the capitol alone in terms of commerce, and I nearly always am developing it as either a settler/whipping/hammer pump or GP farm going forward, so bureau is also not such a focus for me.

    If just HANDED a good initial capitol spot for one, sure I'd consider it more. There was a NC game like this with Lincoln, who was also PHI on top of that. Definitely did bureaucap there, it was different in feel but largely irrelevant compared to the effect of PHI trait itself.
     
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  14. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Prince

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    In what way? What is behind this?
     
  15. Major Tom

    Major Tom Immortal

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    Perhaps this: Pacifism +100% great person birth rate in cities with state religion.
    Starving those cities down during GA running 7-10 scientists pretty rewarding.
     
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