What do you think of Fanfiction?

[Tarquelne]

So if the well read book is more likely to convey the message, wouldn't the effective promotional campaign in fact be included in the 'task' of the writing? So that something left with a poorly performed promotion (or none at all) could be therefore considered 'poorly done', or at best incomplete?

Well, yes, you could consider a books promotional campaign and the book as part of a whole.

I'd generally rather not, though, as I see a clear, useful distinction between the book itself its advertising. (The "20% off maps!" sign is not only not the territory, it's not the map.)

Simply (and tautologically) put, a poorly written book with good promotion that's widely read isn't a "well written book." It's a poorly written book with good promotion.

I can see a use for wrapping it all up together. Trying to determine the "best" self-promoted, self-published book, for example, I think you'd want to weigh all three factors against each other - the writing, the publishing, and the promotion - to create a single measure.

Because no matter how 'well written' an author might think their work is, it can make no difference at all if no one reads it.

(Now you're talking about making a difference, which I see as related to the bare act of communicating, or writing quality, but not the same thing as either.

Based on past posts, I suspect I'd be inclined to agree with you on most issues about writing quality, communication, promotion etc. But not when you conflate them, which is what I think you're doing.)

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You say I ignore your points, when I answer them in my posts. You ignore my position to strengthen your side. You are figuratively putting fingers in your ears and shouting LA LA LA. You are in obvious need of an education, one I would love to give you save for the infractions I would gain in doing so. If you ever wish to be a normal participant in a conversation like this, and discuss things as an adult, I'll be ready to continue.

Thanks.

Actually, I say that even though you claim to not get my points they actually are getting through to you. Nowhere have I even remotely suggested that you are ignoring them.

I'm also not ignoring yours, though I am ignoring your escalating offensiveness. Not that I don't appreciate the escalating offensiveness, since it helps prove my point. You are not actually concerned with just getting your opinion across, you want it accepted as 'truth'. A 'truth' you initially presented with no qualification other than your evident self worth, and have presented over and over as something you gained access to through education, or experience, or some other claimed distinction. Most people recognized that as condescending the first time, and by now I suspect that literally anyone running across this thread, ever will see it pretty clearly.

I did in fact lampoon it by suggesting the mountain and Red Sea; a 'snappy' remark that definitely hit home with you and almost certainly did with most readers. It wasn't made effective by being clever, it was effective because it was on point. You don't have any established distinction as the purveyor of truth so you may as well be carving your opinion into a stone tablet and claiming it is a gift from God.

Now you are resorting to bluster as your distinction. Perhaps in a bar room debate that could be effective, particularly if you are large and have a reputation. In writing, bluster, in my experience, is totally ineffective. For what it's worth I am large and have a reputation, and even in bar room debates I don't resort to bluster because I find it weak.

I gave my opinion on fan fiction and have felt no need to restate it. I'm quite happy to continue interesting discussions that have sprung from the exchange of views, such as 'what distinguishes 'good' fan fiction from the more common drek?' and 'is being widely read a mark of good writing?'.

So again we are back to the issue of what my intention is in continuing to discuss your opinion with you. I have not claimed, and still am not claiming, to be a purveyor of truth, or that you are not entitled to your opinion. Clearly, while I (among others) recognized the offensiveness of your initial post I'm not just about a 'tit for tat' contest or I'd have happily retired on one of my many snappy retorts and called it a 'win'. I think almost anyone, at this point, could tell you my intention...were you willing to listen to anyone. Perhaps you should carry a stone tablet up a mountain, though I wouldn't be surprised if you discounted anything even God might see fit to share with you.

Look to your craft.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Ah, maybe I'm not clearly expressing myself here, again. As it seems to me you've misunderstood all of my posts, I'll dial it down again. Let's play pretend, in our own original creative scenario. You are a student in a kindergarten class. Now, assuming you're a healthy child with a basic understanding of language, social interaction, and a passing knowledge of alphabet rhymes and rainbows, the following should be an easy example for you to follow. I, a fellow student, ask you to finger paint with me. You say, "Sure, Luckymoose. We're fwiends." I smile, with no adverbs. I ask if you'll gather my favorite color paint, blue. You bring me red. Now, we're in a bit of a pickle, tim. I asked for blue, you've brought red. Your eyes work perfectly. You understand color. Red may in fact be your favorite color paint. You interpreted my call for blue as red. Blue, as you may know, is not up for interpretation. Blue, no matter the shade, is defined as a spectrum of colors by the English language that are most certainly not red. You then complain, say I asked for red. I, being the gentleman kindergarten student in a sweater vest smoking a bubble pipe, do not look down on you, but simply offer you my position of your interpretation of what I said. You, being reasonable, fetch the blue paint and accept that I said blue the entire time.

This is crossing over into trollish behavior.

But to address the example of paint colors: Maybe Hypothetical Tim is color-blind. Or maybe he just prefers red. His handing you the red paint could be a way of saying, "Red is a better idea."

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well, yes, you could consider a books promotional campaign and the book as part of a whole.

I'd generally rather not, though, as I see a clear, useful distinction between the book itself its advertising. (The "20% off maps!" sign is not only not the territory, it's not the map.)

Simply (and tautologically) put, a poorly written book with good promotion that's widely read isn't a "well written book." It's a poorly written book with good promotion.

I can see a use for wrapping it all up together. Trying to determine the "best" self-promoted, self-published book, for example, I think you'd want to weight all three factors against each other - the writing, the publishing, and the promotion - to create a single measure.



(Now you're talking about making a difference, which I see as related to the bare act of communicating, or writing quality, but not the same thing as either.

Based on past posts, I suspect I'd be inclined to agree with you on most issues about writing quality, communication, promotion etc. But not when you conflate them, which is what I think you're doing.)

I did take the extreme as an example when I went to the 'if no one reads it', and 'making a difference' was perhaps a bit of loaded shorthand.

I still say that the 'goal' of writing is, ultimately, to be read. There are many avenues to that end. I can be 'read' by spray painting my message on a freeway sign, even if my 'writing' is nothing but a hieroglyphic that literally no one can make heads or tails of. I can be 'read' by handing the one copy of what I've written to one person and saying 'you just must read this', and if it is of sufficient quality that the reader will unfailingly do the same with equal conviction it will work. Most ways to be read are going to fall somewhere in between those extremes, though I'd be interested and amused if anyone has a more extreme example on either end.

While I accept that 'promotion' can be separated from the act of writing, I contend that this is generally irresponsible. Irresponsible in that the writer is not taking responsibility for getting read. It is fairly common to see writers complain that they can't get read because of 'the publishers' or whatever...but I think ultimately that boils down to blaming readers. Blaming readers is silly. As most of us would agree, readers will read just about anything. Heck, I've never missed the back of a cereal box in my entire life.

When it comes to books, readers buy what they read and publishers print what sells. If a writer can get his work read a publisher will be happy to sell it. If I ever take it into my head to write something to sell, ie not fan fiction, I can guarantee that any publishers I approach will get an earful of documented readership associated with my writing...even though those readers are 'just' readers of fan fiction. If nothing else it will demonstrate to them that I can be relied on to self promote effectively.

 

[Luckymoose]

This is crossing over into trollish behavior.

But to address the example of paint colors: Maybe Hypothetical Tim is color-blind. Or maybe he just prefers red. His handing you the red paint could be a way of saying, "Red is a better idea."

I addressed this by saying hypothetical tim has perfect vision and understanding of color. You missed the entire point.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I addressed this by saying hypothetical tim has perfect vision and understanding of color. You missed the entire point.

Actually, since the vast majority of people would clearly recognize it as trollish behavior I'd say he got the actual point perfectly. If he made a mistake it was giving you some detail to jump on to obfuscate his point, that being that what you wrote was trollish.

But of course he has no right to interpret it any other way than you intended...according to you.

 

[Luckymoose]

Actually, since the vast majority of people would clearly recognize it as trollish behavior I'd say he got the actual point perfectly. If he made a mistake it was giving you some detail to jump on to obfuscate his point, that being that what you wrote was trollish.

But of course he has no right to interpret it any other way than you intended...according to you.

Valka is a she, not a he. Also, refrain from using such labels here, it is against the rules. I won't report you, but someone else might.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

LOL...actually, I have no doubt that you would. It fits the blustering you were trying a while ago.

Of course it wasn't actually me that pointed it out in the first place, so I doubt that any mod who takes the time to look a few posts up would sanction me. I also doubt they would sanction Valka, irregardless of gender. The initial behavior, which I won't report, might be noticed however, so feel free to complain to higher authority to get out of the mess you have made for yourself.

 

[Tarquelne]

I still say that the 'goal' of writing is, ultimately, to be read.

Sure ... at least, it's a universal goal. I'm not certain what you mean by "ultimately."

I'm pretty sure some find being paid more attractive than being widely read. Such people, if they find a profitable but niche market, may very well spend their time writing for it rather than going for a broader, but lower-paying market.

Fanfiction seems a good example of a wide-audience but low-profit "market".

Still other authors may realize if they changed their works, gearing them more towards popular tastes, they'd be more widely read. However, they'd rather write what they want to write than be more widely read.

Going back to writing quality, an author may want to make the "best" possible books, by their criteria, and thus spend less time on anything - promotion, popularization, being comprehensible - that detracts from their efforts and making the "best" books.

So ... again, don't know about "ultimate."

While I accept that 'promotion' can be separated from the act of writing, I contend that this is generally irresponsible.

Well ... note that it being irresponsible or not doesn't really bear on whether "writing quality" is different from "promotion quality."

How about, "Yes, they are different things, but I consider them both to be essential skills for the modern writer."?

Anyway, technically speaking, I think you're 100% correct, in that the author isn't taking responsibility for something of central importance to them.

Err ... actually, an author who's ATM read satisfyingly-widely isn't being "irresponsible" when they fail to promote more.

Speaking of that far-away and long-ago time before e-books and the internet, however, I think the barriers to authors promoting their own work were sufficiently high that I wouldn't fault authors for failing to spend a lot of time on promotion.

Today, OTOH, the author doesn't need the publisher at all, and promotion takes far less effort and money.

I'd agree that authors should expect to spend time on promotion, realize that their health and well-being is not a publisher's ultimate goal, and potential readers shouldn't be expected to figure out all-on-their-lonesome that a given author's book exists. There's a lot of books out there and only so much time for looking and reading.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I addressed this by saying hypothetical tim has perfect vision and understanding of color. You missed the entire point.

Maybe about the color-blindness, but not about the hypothetical that Hypothetical Tim might just prefer the color red.

Thank you for pointing out that I'm female. It's discouraging when people get that wrong, and there's really no excuse now, after ainwood added the "gender" part of the sidebar information.

All this said... guys, this thread has escalated into the kind of stuff I used to have to deal with back when I moderated this forum. How about we cool it before Plotinus makes us cool it, 'k?

 

[Luckymoose]

Maybe about the color-blindness, but not about the hypothetical that Hypothetical Tim might just prefer the color red.

Thank you for pointing out that I'm female. It's discouraging when people get that wrong, and there's really no excuse now, after ainwood added the "gender" part of the sidebar information.

All this said... guys, this thread has escalated into the kind of stuff I used to have to deal with back when I moderated this forum. How about we cool it before Plotinus makes us cool it, 'k?

I actually answered that red might be his favorite color in the post too, but that doesn't mean I wanted the color red for my creation. That was the point.

And you're welcome. But this has gone too far, I expressed myself in a nice, clear, and gentle fashion with support of both sides. It isn't my fault people chose to cherrypick my sentences without consuming my entire message. I do not wish to continue this debate, so please don't reply to this.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Sure ... at least, it's a universal goal. I'm not certain what you mean by "ultimately."

I'm pretty sure some find being paid more attractive than being widely read. Such people, if they find a profitable but niche market, may very well spend their time writing for it rather than going for a broader, but lower-paying market.

Fanfiction seems a good example of a wide-audience but low-profit "market".

Still other authors may realize if they changed their works, gearing them more towards popular tastes, they'd be more widely read. However, they'd rather write what they want to write than be more widely read.

Going back to writing quality, an author may want to make the "best" possible books, by their criteria, and thus spend less time on anything - promotion, popularization, being comprehensible - that detracts from their efforts and making the "best" books.

So ... again, don't know about "ultimate."

Well, I was using 'ultimate' as sort of a 'bottom line' I guess, which was not necessarily the best choice of word.

You've made me curious about the 'niche market' idea.

I'm pretty sure that the highest pay for writing available is to hit some sort of best seller out of the park. Not only does that get you a lot of money, it also effectively promotes any future work. Stephen King actually wrote as Bachman just to see if what he was writing was actually good enough to be successful without the Stephen King brand recognition. Of course he didn't ignore the Stephen king publishing connections, but the parameters of his test are his to determine, not mine.

In any event that seems the most lucrative approach. Am I missing something with this niche market idea?
-----------------------------------------------
As to fan fiction being a 'widely read but low paying' approach...I may be wrong again here, but I have the distinct impression that the vast majority of fan fiction, like most things written and posted on the internet, is hardly ever read. Given the perspective of the internet, anyway. The attraction of posting on the internet is that it generally does not provide the negative evidence. I can self-publish, and if I make no effort to find out otherwise something that literally no one reads can look to me like a work of genius.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Thank you for pointing out that I'm female. It's discouraging when people get that wrong, and there's really no excuse now, after ainwood added the "gender" part of the sidebar information.

I apologize for missing that. I am clearly not diligent about consulting the sidebar. I would like to think it is because I accept what is written at face value and don't think knowledge of the gender or location of the writer should weigh on what they say, but it may well be that I was just lazy. Again, I apologize and will be more attentive in future.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

As to fan fiction being a 'widely read but low paying' approach...I may be wrong again here, but I have the distinct impression that the vast majority of fan fiction, like most things written and posted on the internet, is hardly ever read. Given the perspective of the internet, anyway. The attraction of posting on the internet is that it generally does not provide the negative evidence. I can self-publish, and if I make no effort to find out otherwise something that literally no one reads can look to me like a work of genius.

Most fanfiction is mediocre... at best. Some authors will strive to improve on their earlier efforts, and in fact there are stories on fanfiction.net where the authors have taken stories down, reworked them to reflect their growth as writers - improving characters, better dialogue, tighter, more coherent plots, better editing - and reposted them.

I note that one of the rules of that site requires people to proofread before posting, but far too many people don't bother - and therefore, the story looks like crap. The plot may be very good, with interesting ideas, but because the author didn't bother fixing typos and has no idea how to punctuate dialogue (and has no clue that you don't mix multiple speakers in the same paragraph), I won't read any further. It's too bad; there are probably lots of otherwise good stories that go unread because of lazy editing (or no editing at all).

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Most fanfiction is mediocre... at best. Some authors will strive to improve on their earlier efforts, and in fact there are stories on fanfiction.net where the authors have taken stories down, reworked them to reflect their growth as writers - improving characters, better dialogue, tighter, more coherent plots, better editing - and reposted them.

I note that one of the rules of that site requires people to proofread before posting, but far too many people don't bother - and therefore, the story looks like crap. The plot may be very good, with interesting ideas, but because the author didn't bother fixing typos and has no idea how to punctuate dialogue (and has no clue that you don't mix multiple speakers in the same paragraph), I won't read any further. It's too bad; there are probably lots of otherwise good stories that go unread because of lazy editing (or no editing at all).

That's charitable. I agree with the general view that 90% is excrement, and of the remaining ten percent most would be stretching to reach mediocre.

I also will consign anything that has obviously never been proofed to the instant scrap heap...though I have to admit that I proofed my oldest work before posting when I first ran it on Blogger, then re-proofed after posting, then proofed it again when I was reformatting it onto fanfiction.net (and strongly considered rewriting as well but didn't), and reproofed it again once it was posted...and when something calls my attention to look at it I still see stuff sets my teeth on edge. Words with thespace left out. A misspelling or flat out typio. There aren't many and I know it shows up that it has been proofed, but the ability of such things to repeatedly escape notice is truly remarkable.

 

[Tarquelne]

In any event that seems the most lucrative approach. Am I missing something with this niche market idea?

That most people can't simply decide to write a best seller and then do it. A book yes. A "best seller"? Much, much, chancier. If your book isn't a best seller you may not make nearly as much, over the time it took to write, than you might have reliably made with other projects. Even writing short fiction.

Especially if you're not good at promotion and/or feel you need to work with a publisher.

The other day I came across a blog for a guy whose main writing seems to be taking non-fiction books and writing (authorized) Young Adult versions.

He's not making best-seller money, but I got the impression it was nicely reliable.

Such strategies tend to be reliable the the "being read" thing, too. Selling to a magazine won't (in the short term, at least) lead to best-seller readership, but you will get readers in proportion to magazine sales.

As to fan fiction being a 'widely read but low paying' approach...I may be wrong again here, but I have the distinct impression that the vast majority of fan fiction, like most things written and posted on the internet, is hardly ever read.

I don't really know, and that sounds likely.

Looking at what Valka brought up, it'd be interesting to know how much fanfic that undergoes significant "polishing" (or is just polished to start with) is read.

 

[Tarquelne]

Thank you for pointing out that I'm female. It's discouraging when people get that wrong, and there's really no excuse now, after ainwood added the "gender" part of the sidebar information.

Ah, the sidebar ... I'm still going to assume don't really look like Carl Sagan.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Ah, the sidebar ... I'm still going to assume don't really look like Carl Sagan.

I assume you have more than one eye and don't come to a point on top...

You do make a good point that most people can't just decide to write a best seller. I wasn't thinking of what I've called 'project writing' when you said 'niche market', and that's how I'd have described the young adult adaptation guy. Now that I see what you mean you're definitely right. For 'making a living at writing' there are many many better ways to go. I know a guy who makes good money writing technical manuals and his employers are always looking for people, but I flat out couldn't do it.

Again blurring the lines between writing and promotion (and being repetitious) I could say I'm a 'professional writer' since I have been fairly paid for writing ad copy, but that's clearly across the line in promotion territory.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Ah, the sidebar ... I'm still going to assume don't really look like Carl Sagan.

I chose the Carl Sagan avatar back when the new Cosmos series was running, a few months ago. I had a thread about it in OT.

I'm considering a change, but haven't decided yet.

Again blurring the lines between writing and promotion (and being repetitious) I could say I'm a 'professional writer' since I have been fairly paid for writing ad copy, but that's clearly across the line in promotion territory.

Amazon Mechanical Turk once paid me 70 cents for writing and posting on a jewelry forum... (I said nice things about an amethyst necklace, which I honestly thought was rather pretty).

 

[Tarquelne]

I assume you have more than one eye and don't come to a point on top...

It depends on the angle.