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What do you want to see in RiFE or Ashes?

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Derf, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. Gafgar

    Gafgar Chieftain

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    My big problem with the Mechanos has always been their lore: to the right the Mercurians and Infernals are punching each other in the face, to the left the four horsemen of the apocalypse are riding about killing all the elves while the world slowly slides into a physical hell plane, behind a dead ancient wizard is trying to take over the underworld in a coup de'tat while souls are casually walking out of it and rebuilding their long-lost civilizations, in front sun-worshiping vampires are duking it out with the reborn god of winter, and the Mechanos stand there in the center of it all clenching their fedoras and insisting that religion is delusion.

    Frankly their lore looks like a bad Chinese knockoff of the Grigori, and I'd much prefer it if they were either removed from the already-sizable list of civilizations that can't adopt state religions or at least had their secularism refluffed as freedom of religion. But that's just my personal tastes, obviously, and has little bearing on their gameplay itself, which I haven't looked at.
     
  2. Jheral

    Jheral Prince

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    I've personally always felt they don't belong in the Age of Rebirth at all - if they should be in at all they should be in a much later age, in an Erebus that had lost most of it's magic.
     
  3. Derf

    Derf Modular Mushroom

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    While I rather like the Mechanos as they are, I understand your sentiment. Several D&D players I've play with remark on the lack of technology in their campaigns, only to have the resident GM point out that the more tech you have, the less Dragon and magic you have.
     
  4. Viatos

    Viatos Prince

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    Eberron has robot-people and airship combat and does alright...but the Mechanos are a little different in that rather than coexist with magic, they argue that it's not really magic in the first place. It's one thing to have a civilization that's objectively wrong (notably, what the average Scion of Patria thinks is going on vs. what the Risen Emperor is actually doing) or that wants to ruin stuff forever (Sheiam, the Legion) but it's kind of another to be like "all these gods who are actively walking around the world creating massive undeniable miracles, they're all an illusion cast by misunderstood SCIENCE!"

    I actually feel like they're like a bad version of the Dural's fluff. But their actual game stuff is awesome, so in my heart I just pretend they're the Dural and sometimes mod them into being so.
     
  5. Gafgar

    Gafgar Chieftain

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    By and large I agree. Maybe disassemble the Mechanos and add their stuff into the lategame techtree for everyone, with the techs unlocked through an event? Like say the Armageddon Counter is rising and one civ already has every tech in the game, and an event allows them to unlock a hidden technology (which, thus, opens up a series of other new technologies) if they perform certain tasks...
     
  6. Jheral

    Jheral Prince

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    Cannibalising them to make other civs more interesting would also be an option:

    Exploring the similarities with the Dural could give them a bit more definition - something which I personally feel would be sorely needed - plus, the science and progress angle is already there to some extent.

    The emphasis on machine spirits and magitech could be brought into the new, Luchuirp-based side of the Khazad (parts of it could also be included in the entire civ) to give them a backstory (machine-worshipping dwarves, obsessed with automatons and golems).

    The whole Witch Hunter anti-magic angle could also be worked in in several civs - Bannor, Khazad, Grigori, Dural etc...

    I don't really know how I feel about generally available technology though - it would be very out of place with some civs, but I guess the Arquebus already exists, so more could be made out of that discovery. Maybe forcing a choice in the late game between powerful combat units and powerful mages? Something like the "Arrakis Future" strategy choice in Dune Wars perhaps, forcing you to commit earlier to a specific set of game-winning goals?

    Of course, all of that is a fairly massive undertaking, so... :mischief:
     
  7. Gangrin

    Gangrin Warlord

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    IMHO disassembling Mechanos is intriguing idea, but won't it result in changing RifE/Ashes/Whateverwecallitnow from fantasy-game into steampunk-game? While i am all for it and by no means opposed to increase in content, it will result in dissonance with the main theme. I mean, what the ultimate goal of the game? To spread your religion to every corner of the world, to throw it into hell, achieve arcane mastery or outright murder your enemies. Nothing of it really have steampunk feel (with possible exception of murder, but it's always a trend). But then again, i will never say no to increase in content.

    What i really love to see is some religion workout. We discussed it a while ago, but no conclusion were made, unfortunately.
     
  8. JTL

    JTL Chieftain

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    About the Golem Civ.
    I dont think it is needed that Barnaxus must be the Leader. Think about it. Barnaxus was Created by the Luchiurp and was given Thought by Mulcarn but He ( It ) still is a Hero of the former Luchiurps Civ so He maybe have a Fallsave that prevents him from totaly betraying the Luchis or Draves in general. So if He cant free Himself from it, wouldnt it be Logical to Think that He would Create a Golem with all Wisdom / Inteligence without such Hinderences that could be a True Leader for a Golem Civ and would be His true Son ?

    About the Mechanos. I would let them stay in even if they are a contradiction.
     
  9. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    add to that an equivalent bonus to research that compensates that penalty if you have the religion in one city. (so that if it spreads to you it is not too expensive to tech).

    for luirchips : beware : Khazad don't have mages archmages while luirchips had them, and there is the question of rangers.

    so maybe the luirchips leaders of khazad could allow rangers and mages+, while lore hkhazads would allows tankier melee, and the last level of dwarven vault ?


    for mechanos I agree.
    split them into the dural / the luirchips / the austrin ... etc
    -luirchips/khazad gets the "use raw nodes as power plant" part and build machines.
    -dural get the magus-like unit to replace their lack-luster professor...
    -the riflemen and firethrower and mounted riflemen (dragons) are spread between austrin, khazad/luirchips and chislev (or hippus) respectively?
     
  10. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    I'm no lore master, but I will defend the mechanos here- I always believed that they don't necessarily deny the existence of the gods, but are like the Grigori and dislike them and their agendas and how they require the obedience of their followers to their whims. Unlike the Grigori though, who emphasize self reliance to combat the influence of the gods are a very peaceful folk, the mechanos seek to aggressively enforce their brand of atheism, antitheism if you will through technology, not realizing that the price they pay for the power to escape the control of the gods is to accept the dominance of technology and to lose touch with the magical world.

    Of course, none of that covers up the fact that gameplay wise they play too much like the khazad, with the emphasis being on mana rather than gold. I would give their improved siege and archery line to the khazad, while the golem civ would get the factory/ production bonus because as golems their units will be more expensive to build then other units of equivalent strength, at least I assume so therefore higher production will help and make them more viable.

    Another problem I'd like to bring up is the player being unable to play D'tesh. I've tried to fix this problem several times but something always goes wrong. Will this be fixed in the new version?
     
  11. Derf

    Derf Modular Mushroom

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    The AI simply cannot handle playing the Legion of D'Tesh, but there shouldn't be any issues for human players picking them. Are you using RiFE itself, Ashes of Erebus or Rebirth and Legend?
     
  12. Ronkhar

    Ronkhar Warlord

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    jackelgull must be playing RifE 1.4 (not 1.41 or one of our versions)

     
  13. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    Wow, I didn't even realize there was a version 1.41. I feel stupid.
    After playing the D'tesh, I feel like they're too focused going down the arcane line. Their crypt bonuses are there and their best hero. The Chosen of D'tesh are just plain awesome and the dark empowerment easily gets you to level 5. I don't want them to be too like the scions of Patria who collapse under all the diverse tech requirements they need, but as a fallow civ and one that doesn't need to focus on the economic techs they are too powerful, because they can easily ignore most of the tech tree until you feel like bothering with it, because all you really need are arcane to survive. Of course I don't want to be one of those annoying players who suggest nerfing everything good about the game and this isn't to say I don't enjoy them...
    But when you're out teching the rest of the world and slaughtering everything in your path in a blaze of fire, the fun does wear out quickly. But I am probably overstating the case, because until Necromancy, the D'tesh have the worst economy in the game and it requires Arcane Lore to turn them into production monsters. Plus maybe some of it can be attributed to fallow+slaves+mercantilism+scholarship= lots of specialists that give gold and science especially once the slaves start rolling in. And this probably has a lot to do with the plain incompetence of the AI at nobles too. I suppose I don't know what to suggest, but I think the making corrupted pastures require animal husbandry is a step in the right direction and continuing down that line of thought would help widen the D'tesh requirements a little bit. At least make the melee or recon line more viable. Perhaps remove the experience malus of wretched so that melee and recon can gain experience at a normal rate?
     
  14. Ominous Destiny

    Ominous Destiny Chieftain

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    I always felt that those fedoras were one of their best qualities :lol:
     
  15. Nero-Angelo

    Nero-Angelo Chieftain

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    I actually like the the Mechanos for what they are: People denying the gods in a world where gods and angels are everywhere.
    This coupled with some nice mechanics makes them a HUGE plus for RIFE/Rebirth/AoE.
    It's outside of your typical cliché of a high fantasy world.

    There are awesome civs lacking some love mechanic wise, f.e. Chislev or Jotnar and civs with some nice mechnic-concept but a huge lack of "fluff" like the Dural or Austrin.
    The idea of merging isn't about "let's cut that stuff" but instead about "take the best stuff of otherwise lackluster civs to buff existing ones".
    F.e. the Grigori would benefit from the Dural buildings, etc.
     
  16. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    A couple very minor changes. Beeri Bawl should lose defender, since half his units (golems) don't gain the relevant traits, and gain industrious. Catapults should be blocked for cualli and mazatl. Attacking into their lands is a dangerous proposition; they should have an equally difficult time attacking others, especially considering the economy boost they receive.

    Some more intensive changes: Balanced economy boosts from religions.

    Some minor changes that I have already tested: Balisca available at orders from heaven, also gives a production and commerce boost to the city (20 and 10 respectively). New building for empyrean, available at honor, gives bonus trade and food from trade. (50 and 10 respectively).

    Some other sweeping changes

    Ashen Veil: Eliminate the ability to use life spells while running ashen veil, grant a sacrifical ability to gain temporary health from population (double for calabim) and provide some benefits to corporations for ashen veil resources.

    Runes of kilmorph and fellowship of the leaves: Ancient forests go back to normal, and dwarven fortresses fall apart if the player no longer has the state religion (khazad exempt)

    Octopus overlords: Spreads rivers through territory (aims to surround city) and treats all cities as coastal for the purposes of buildings and trade. Spreads reefs and provides units immunity damage and improved movement through them. Like the above, these effects recede when switching out of this religion.

    Council of Esus.. I'm sort of at a loss here.. specialist economy? Maybe the ability to steal trade routes..
     
  17. eris23

    eris23 Warlord

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    If the Ljolsafar defeat the Svartalfar (or vice versa) they become the Alfar, inherting the defeated Civ's Civ trait. They should be then able to build a new national wonder, the Winter Court (or Summer Court) respectively.
    Btw, why isn't the Ljolsafar/Svartalfar Palace not called Summer/Winter Court?

    @Evalis
    So, is there any reason not to go for Octupus Overlords?
    As for Council of Esus, how about being able to steal one resource from a neighbour. Kinda like demanding a resource (which cannot be denied), but it can't be cancelled after 10 turns either.
    Alternatively, treat everyone as having open borders, ie you can explore/pass their territory but they can't yours.
    Or this might be even trickier to program/incorporate. You get a tech bonus (similar to the Elder trait), but only from Foreign Trade.
     
  18. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    I agree, the proposed boosts to Octopus Overlords would make it too strong.
    For Council of Esus, how about give it the ability to perform espionage missions, like the ones in base BTS. You know, steal treasury, destroy improvements and all that, with the CoE state religion. Instead of needing to accumulate points, these missions would take turns, with your spy having a tiny chance to get caught. If it doesn't then the next mission takes one turn less and less of a chance to get caught to a maximum of ten turns off. It would fit with the whole deception theme, and allows for some powerful effects like stealing tech.
    As for the Runes of Kilmorph, I would like for the ability to build dwarven mines to be taken away from that religion, because it reduces the amount of special things the Khazad get. Instead I would replace it with a state religion only building available at Arete for 300 hammers which gives +10% :hammers: and +10% :gold: with a slot for a craftsman and merchant. Or perhaps just give the Arete civic the straight up bonus of giving every city in the empire +10% :hammers: and +10% :gold: so that it can only be had when running Runes of Kilmorph as the state religion.
     
  19. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    Hmm.. I suppose making all cities become coastal really takes away from the idea that you want to run it if you are close to the sea. I should probably clarify that the river spread wasn't intended to cover every tile, just that you get a guaranteed (eventually) river running through your territory with emphasis on city touching.

    I'm really aiming to make octopus overlords the most optimal choice for the lanun. As it is, they are better off with fellowship of the leaves, for kelp spawn and the bonus health/happy it provides. Ideas on accomplishing this would be welcomed :)

    Just fyi, my original thoughts on improving order were to provide a stacking buff to production and commerce for each victory that maxes at 10 and falls off by 1 stack every 10 turns. Providing higher (but similar) benefits that the building did, in addition to overhauling the bannor world spell to work around this effect. The building was just easier to edit in.
     
  20. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    I'm not sure if this is the best way to do it, but it seems to me that the big reason to go Octopus Overlords is for the military advantages it offers, so to emphasize that, make lunatics more viable by removing the crazed promotion from them and giving them the berserk ability, which grants them 50% extra strength but guarantees that they'll die at the end of combat and only allow them to get bronze weapons. This will make them strong in the early game and viable in the midgame until stygian guards.
     

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