What does the economic news mean?

onejayhawk

Afflicted with reason
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This past week one thing after another rolled out. All of them pointing to a strong, even massive, holiday selling season and all that means for retailers, and later the economy. Employment figures are still down, but that is usually the last thing to come around.

In any event the stock market has been strong for months and the other leading indicators have been looking up since spring. If reatailers rock and roll through the end of the year, which seems likely, employment should be strong at this time next year, when the election comes up.

Or maybe I'm wrong. What do you think?

J
 
I am repeating what someone else said, but:

Yes, employment figures are the last to come up, usually about 6 months or so. But didn't the economy start to pick up 6 months ago?
 
Originally posted by cgannon64
I am repeating what someone else said, but:

Yes, employment figures are the last to come up, usually about 6 months or so. But didn't the economy start to pick up 6 months ago?
That is correct. In this case that means that we should see the improvement in the 4th quarter. Since that is also the seasonal hiring period for the Holidays, I would say its a safe bet, assuming the Christmas season is as strong as it looks.

J
 
Few economists seem to believe that this 7.2% annualised growth rate is sustainable, but even if growth drops somewhat it's clear that real economic recovery is underway in the US.
Funny, a few months ago it looked like Bush would be fighting a campaign based on his foreign policy success, with a poor economic record as his chief problem. Now it looks more and more like the reverse.
 
@ RIII: Not as hard as you think. :D

A Big Quarter
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: October 31, 2003

The Commerce Department announces very good growth during the previous quarter. Many observers declare the economy's troubles over. And the administration's supporters claim that the economy's turnaround validates its policies.

That's what happened 18 months ago, when a preliminary estimate put first-quarter 2002 growth at 5.8 percent. That was later revised down to 5.0. More important, growth in the next quarter slumped to 1.3 percent, and we now know that the economy wasn't really on the mend: after that brief spurt, the nation proceeded to lose another 600,000 jobs.

The same story unfolded in the third quarter of 2002, when growth rose to 4 percent, and the economy actually gained 200,000 jobs. But growth slipped back down to 1.4 percent, and job losses resumed.

My purpose is not to denigrate the impressive estimated 7.2 percent growth rate for the third quarter of 2003. It is, rather, to stress the obvious: we've had our hopes dashed in the past, and it remains to be seen whether this is just another one-hit wonder.

The weakness of that spurt 18 months ago was obvious to those who bothered to look at it closely. Half the growth came simply because businesses, having drawn down their inventories in the previous quarter, had to ramp up production even though demand was growing slowly. This time around growth has a much better foundation: final demand — demand excluding changes in inventories — actually grew even faster than G.D.P. So it's unlikely that growth will drop off as sharply as it did back then.

But — you knew there would be a but — there are still some reasons to wonder whether the economy has really turned the corner.

First, while there was a significant pickup in business investment, the bulk of last quarter's growth came from a huge surge in consumer spending, with a further boost from housing. These components of spending stayed strong even when the economy was weak, so there shouldn't have been any pent-up demand. Yet housing grew at a 20 percent rate, while spending on consumer durables (that's stuff like cars and TV sets) — which last year grew three times as fast as the economy — rose at an incredible 27 percent rate last quarter.

This can't go on — in the long run, consumer spending can't outpace the growth in consumer income. Stephen Roach of Morgan Stanley has suggested, plausibly, that much of last quarter's consumer splurge was "borrowed" from the future: consumers took advantage of low-interest financing, cash from home refinancing and tax rebate checks to accelerate purchases they would otherwise have made later. If he's right, we'll see below-normal purchases and slower growth in the months ahead.

The big question, of course, is jobs. Despite all that growth in the third quarter, the number of jobs actually fell. And new claims for unemployment insurance, a leading indicator for the job market, still show no sign of a hiring boom. (By the way, for the last month there's been a peculiar pattern: each week, headlines declare that new claims fell from the previous week; a week later, the past week's number is revised upward, and the apparent decline disappears.)

And unless we start to see serious job growth — by which I mean increases in payroll employment of more than 200,000 a month — consumer spending will eventually slide, and bring growth down with it.

Still, it's possible that we really have reached a turning point. If so, does it validate the Bush economic program? Well, no.

Stimulating the economy in the short run is supposed to be easy, as long as you don't worry about how much debt you run up in the process. As William Gale of the Brookings Institution puts it, "Almost any tax cut or spending increase would succeed in boosting a sluggish economy if the Federal Reserve Board follows an accommodative monetary policy. . . . The key question is, therefore, not whether the proposals provide any short-term stimulus, but whether they are the most effective way to provide stimulus." Mr. Gale doesn't think the Bush tax cuts meet that criterion, and neither do I.

To put it more bluntly: it would be quite a trick to run the biggest budget deficit in the history of the planet, and still end a presidential term with fewer jobs than when you started. And despite yesterday's good news, that's a trick President Bush still seems likely to pull off.
 
The thing with jobs in America, as far as I can work out, is that employers are working their existing employees harder rather than hiring more staff. This means that the eventual knock-on effect on the recent good growth figures will not really happen until later than in the past. So this six months time period is a bit of a red herring. That's my reading of the situation anyway.
 
The thing with jobs in America, as far as I can work out, is that employers are working their existing employees harder rather than hiring more staff. This means that the eventual knock-on effect on the recent good growth figures will not really happen until later than in the past. So this six months time period is a bit of a red herring. That's my reading of the situation anyway.
 
The thing with jobs in America, as far as I can work out, is that employers are working their existing employees harder rather than hiring more staff. This means that the eventual knock-on effect on the recent good growth figures will not really happen until later than in the past. So this six months time period is a bit of a red herring. That's my reading of the situation anyway.
 
This just means that we produced more in the third quarter of 2003. What's more interesting is the jobless rate (unemployed plus those that aren't counted). Productivity has also gone up at a pretty good clip, but it could also be said that productivity gives employers greater leeway in hiring and laying off decisions.

I see nobody argues that job recoveries are about six months behind a stock market recovery. It's been almost a year and jobs have actually been lost. There is speculation that starting soon, the economy can add 166,000 jobs a month. However, there are also 150,000 people entering the job market each month. That leaves only 16,000 jobs to absorb the estimated 3 million job loss so far. At that rate, it will take 187.5 years just to go back to where we were. That doesn't sound too encouraging.

Also, consumer spending went up. Great! But, that doesn't mean businesses will necessarily add more jobs with the extra money. Also, if the job market stagnates...that high consumer spending will quickly turn into subnormal levels....right into the Christmas season, actually. That's not too good either.

So, in my opinion, this 7.2% GDP annual rate for the third quarter doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. But boy did those people in the administration jump for the credit quickly.....
 
Originally posted by MrPresident
The thing with jobs in America, as far as I can work out, is that employers are working their existing employees harder rather than hiring more staff. This means that the eventual knock-on effect on the recent good growth figures will not really happen until later than in the past. So this six months time period is a bit of a red herring. That's my reading of the situation anyway.


Productivity is up. There's also better communications technology which lets bosses annoy the employees to work during weekends at home.....so on. Yeah, that's about right.
 
One thing that has largely gotten overlooked is the role the stock market plays in the whole budget picture. In particular the role capital gains taxes play. I do not recall hearing about the record capital gains revenues collected 1995-1999 at the time. The amount literally balanced the budget for two years. During the following 4 years there were almost no capital gains revenues, due to the lack of capital gains to tax.

What we did get at the time was a rosy picture of future surpluses, which to a large extent, caught political activists flatfooted. No one paid attention to that sector of the cash flow, so when the entire cash flow turned around, they didnt notice til the final numbers were in. As is customary, the party in office got credit, just as the party in office has been blamed for the lack of that revenue for the last 3 years.

What does this all mean. First, the deficite projections will been badly wrong when the final 2003 numbers come in. The expected "record deficit" will be FAR short of that, less than half quite possibly. With 15% gains already this year, large numbers of investors will likely want to cash in their gains, and reinvest before the end of the tax year.

One more point. It has been said in various circles that the economic basics have been solid for some time, say a year and half. Check my posts from last spring. I was predicting substantial growth based on the gearing up of industry. All this is another way of saying that, while 7%+ is not sustainable, 3.5%+ would be well grounded. It is an old truism that all economic problems can be solved by assuming 4% growth. In this case, that is a reasonable number over the next 12-18 months.

Numbers can be soft or firm. The are soft if the accompanying news does not fit with historical patterns, and the other news points the opposite way. This often happens when large single or basically nonrepetitive factors have come into play. Numbers are firm when other news aligns the same way, indicating that events are following traditional (read that predictable) patterns closely.

This news is soft. There has been an unusual selldown in inventories. This acts to defer growth to the nearterm future, when the companies move to replenish inventories. Put another way, 7.3% is an unrealistic predictive number. A better number would be 9%-9.5%, since that fits the broad patterns better.

J
 
The stockmarket is just a part of the picture.

Even if [and that's a big if] this new growth is a) real, b) sustainable, and c) across-the-board [in other words, if it actually matters], the long-term problems that the Bush administration has been at least partly responsible for still remain. And yes, these problems can be laid squarely at the White House's doorstep, because they have to do with fiscal policy.

These are:

1) the huge current-account and trade deficit, which the Administration seems to think is a statistical chimera and is nothing to worry about, even though Bush has broken the worldwide historical debt record.

2) the high dollar, which is hurting our economy long-term, and the risk of sudden devaluation, which would sink the world economy, since Europe and East Asia are doing particularly badly recently.

3) the growing polarization of our wealth [43% in the hands of the first percent, as opposed to 33% in 1990], which Bush has ENCOURAGED through his ridiculous tax policies. Increasingly, rising economic tides do NOT lift all boats. The stockmarket IS going up. And millions of jobs ARE being lost.

4) growth of fat-cattery and accompanying scandals, which Bush has done relatively nothing to stop. Foreign investors are beginning to lose confidence in our increasingly corrupt, inbred, and noncompetitive boardrooms. Of course, for Bush, who was hired and could potentially be fired BY fat-cats [his biggest lifetime campaign contributor was Enron, after all, and the "poorest" member of his cabinet, Rice, has an oil tanker named after her], any attempt at corporation reform is political suicide.


Of course, we can all expect Bush to crow about "stock market growth". After all, for his most important constituents [those who pay $2000 a plate at special dinners to gain "access", as J calls it, to the Throne] the stock market IS the greatest indicator of "growth". In their own bank accounts, of course.

The question is whether the majority of Republicans, who are after all self-proclaimed "hard-working Americans", will be so easily hoodwinked.
 
The catch is the employment picture. The expectation may be that recovery will happen somewhere between now and the election, but will it be as strong of a recovery as has been traditional? It seems that a lot of outsourcing of higher quality jobs has happened during the economic downturn . . . jobs in the technology, financial, and other high-end service areas. One major corporation has even outsourced a significant portion of its inhouse legal work to India. What proportion of the population will be worse off than it was when Bush took office? A hot stock market is not helpful to someone who is unemployed . . . nor is a tax cut that doesn't add to the 100% involuntary tax cut they got from being laid off.

Personally, I'm better off in that I'm permanently employed and participatng in the stock market (33% gain in my account in October - best month for me since February 2000), but I'm making far less in wages than I was as a contractor in 2000 - most of my previously solid contracting opportunities have been outsourced overseas and it was time to become permanentrly employed - stability over the risks of chasing after higher-paying, but less available contract work.
 
Though I am no fan of any economic policies in the US right now, it is amuzing to see leftists cringe at the prospect of a Republican president leading a booming economy.
 
Originally posted by onejayhawk
This past week one thing after another rolled out. All of them pointing to a strong, even massive, holiday selling season and all that means for retailers, and later the economy. Employment figures are still down, but that is usually the last thing to come around.
I'm curious why you see a strong holiday season. Most economists agree that the reason customer spending skyrocketed this last quarter was a combination of the home interest rates bottoming out and the tax cut. Both of those are finite stimuli that have been largely spent. Any future spending is going to have to come from paychecks, which nobody expects to recover by Christmas. Where is the money for this "massive" holiday season going to come from?
 
Originally posted by Richard III
7.2% growth is pretty hard to be cynical about. I'm afraid. :D

Except knowing that if it had been 7.2% unemployment number rather than a 7.2% growth number, then Bush's current cheerleaders would have been shouting "Gimme a C, gimme an L, gimme an I, gimme an N, gimme a T, gimme an O, gimme an N - Who do we blame? Clinton!"
 
Originally posted by newfangle
Though I am no fan of any economic policies in the US right now, it is amuzing to see leftists cringe at the prospect of a Republican president leading a booming economy.
You call one quarter of good news a booming economy? Its equally amusing to see rightwingers grasping at straws as they fall off the cliff with Bush
 
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