What exactly is so wrong with communism?

[homeyg]

Except for the fact that it hasn't been implemented properly yet, why are people so opposed to it?

Let me just ask you a few simple questions:

1) Do you believe everyone should make the same amount of money and recieve the same quality of goods and services?
2) Do you believe that society could actually function without classes?
3) Do you believe that society could continue with no government?

 

[emzie]

@homeyg

your sig makes me PTSD I'm back in 'nam

It would fail just like the other commie regimes. This system can work in small communities if all people join voluntarily and strongly believe in the system - so strongly that they're willing to make personal sacrifices and work for the greater good. It requires a faith not dissimilar to religious zeal.

Problems arise when you try to apply it on a bigger community or a whole country. In such a situation, convinced communist "believers" will inevitably become a minority - and guess what methods will they use to "persuade" others to follow their ideals...

Yes, the same crap we've seen in the USSR, DPRK, Maoist China and a half of Europe. How many more people do have to die before people realize that some ideas are simply bad?

They're examples of poor countries with unskilled populations trying to build via communism.

In no way am I arguing that communism would outpreform another system. It is a bad idea.

 

[homeyg]

@homeyg

your sig makes me PTSD I'm back in 'nam

How does my sig give you post traumatic stress disorder?!?!?

 

[emzie]

How does my sig give you post traumatic stress disorder?!?!?

I just want Boxxy to go away

 

[PaulusIII]

Communism looks good on paper, but it will never work because humans are selfish bastards.

 

[amadeus]

Because they irrationally fear that it threatens their very existence.

Some "libertarian" you are.

 

[REDY]

Probably because they have already met with some communists.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Some "libertarian" you are.

Why? Because you apparently don't understand what the word even means? Libertarians don't inherently hate or fear anybody regardless of their political positions. While I personally prefer some form of democracy myself, I don't think it is going to spell the doom of all mankind if a few countries decide to practice it in some form, as you apparently do.

 

[Whomp]

I suppose there's nothing wrong with communism if we assume full development has been reached and how we'd resolve the transition.

If we assume right now, we can start by asking how the labor theory of value works? It performs poorly in a real world. First, it doesn't work outside of perfect competition. Second, even with perfect competition it does not work unless labor is the only factor in production, which it is not, but more importantly that labor is all one kind (IE equal intelligence, will power, leadership, physical strength and/or agility).

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Because they irrationally fear that it threatens their very existence.

Oh no, the threat is very real, but only to the wealthy elite.

As to the rest, I'll remind you that communism has never existed. With the exception of the Paris Commune, we have only seen deformed attempts at socialism before. I've no problem with arguing with people about the theories of socialism, but to look at places like the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, or Zimbabwe and say that they are evidence that socialism cannot or does not work is very dishonest. I often liken it to trying to light damp or wet wood, and complaining that since it won't light, that fire therefore cannot burn wood. The right circumstances must exist, and to continue my metaphor, the wood was not dry in the places thus far who have seriously attempted socialism.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

I think the better question is what's so right about communism that so many people keep wanting to try it.

 

[SpiritWolf]

What's wrong is that communism robs the individual of the freedom to make choices.

 

[Formaldehyde]

As to the rest, I'll remind you that communism has never existed.

I usually try to put it in quotes for that very reason. Thanks for the reminder.

I think the better question is what's so right about communism that so many people keep wanting to try it.

I bet you have never been inside a textile mill in the South, much less a sweatshop employing illegal aliens. Great social, political, and economic inequities usually create socialism and "communism". Take living under Batista in Cuba, for instance. Or the czars in Russia...

The movie Sicko makes a very good point in this regard. The French are apparently not oppressed nearly as much as we are. And because democracy is practiced instead of preached, the political power in that country is in the hands of the common people instead of the aristocracy as it is in this country. They have great benefits as a result. They are always protesting over this or that. They have 35 hour work weeks and 5 weeks of vacation every year.They can actually effect change because the government fears them and listens to their complaints as a result.

 

[Gustave5436]

Because every time it has been implemented has been alongside dictatorship.

False both by definition (communism being a socialist economic system and thus logically inconsistent with the existence of the state) and by historical evidence.

What's wrong is that communism robs the individual of the freedom to make choices.

When you say "communism" are you referring to the political ideology of Bolshevism (which is, ironically, collectivist, not communist, due to its labor-voucher system), or the economic system of communism (wherein the results of production, as well as the means, are made free to all)?

Communism looks good on paper, but it will never work because humans are selfish bastards.

And, being so-called selfish bastards, should not every individual have his or her own self-interest as a primary goal? Furthermore, is it not in a person's self-interest to possess liberty, that is, to be free from outside control and coercion?

Logically, I would conclude that no matter how altruistic or selfish humans are, it will always be in their interests to oppose capital and the state, for these entities create a strict social hierarchy, which benefits the elite at the expense of everyone else.

The problem is not selfishness, but ignorance, as seen by the fact that almost no one understands what "communism," or even "socialism," means.

 

[civ_king]

Well, first of all it tramples on an essential human liberty, the right to retain the fruits of one's labor. While the communists will try to spin this as being a part of their system, it isn't.

well, because the government says I can't own slaves prevents me from making money and preventing me from doing something the Bible says is kosher!

 

[Wraith23]

Communism is an illusion invented by Marx to justify the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Now if you mean whats wrong with "scientific socialism" as a whole, there are many things but if I had to choose it would be the absence of individual liberty and the coercion by the socialist state.

The movie Sicko makes a very good point in this regard.

If you take Michael Moore as a source you have a big problem

Although is true the french have a different mentality, as most europeans do, they tend accept more the administration of resources by the state and pay more taxes as a result.

Yet they still voted for a liberal president

 

[Wraith23]

double post

 

[Gustave5436]

1) Do you believe everyone should make the same amount of money and recieve the same quality of goods and services?

Money does not exist in communism.

Furthermore, everyone does not receive the same quality goods and services under communism. Some people might be interested in fancy cars, so they might put their time into the procurement of such goods. Others might be interested in science, so they might put their time into research. The person who is disinterested in material possessions will not get a fancy car, because she has no use for one, while the person who is bored by science (which is, incidentally, a terrible shame), will not engage in research.

Essentially, there are two sorts of labor in communism; necessary and luxury. Necessary labor is that which all require; housing, health care, food, and so on. Hence, the people of a commune may insist that each working-age person (e.g. 20-55) gives a certain amount of time (say, 15 hours a week) to the procurement of these necessities. The remaining waking time is leisure, to be allocated as the individual desires (and, if she so desires, she may allocate this time into fancy car production, or scientific research, according to her own individual tastes).

2) Do you believe that society could actually function without classes?

Class generates social conflict. It is the interests of the ruling class to maintain its own rule, its dominance over society, while it is in the interests of the laboring class to liberate itself, to overthrow the ruling class and abolish the institutions of property and the state (which allow for the existence of class). These interests are, of course, opposed. There are two ways I know of to resolve this social question. The first is totalitarianism; brainwash everyone into obeying the state without question, and "rebellion" will be undefined. The second is to go the opposite direction, abolishing all coercive institutions as part of the social revolution.

Since capitalist society is burdened by class conflict, while socialist society is not, arguably society would function better without class than with it, even ignoring the benefits to be gained from workers' self-management, etc.

3) Do you believe that society could continue with no government?

It seemed to work out just fine in Spain.

 

[REDY]

Communism is an illusion invented by Marx to justify the dictatorship of the proletariat.

His ambition was obviosly bigger than justify something what hasnt existed.

 

[Formaldehyde]

If you take Michael Moore as a source you have a big problem.

If you dismiss anything he might have to say without actually knowing what it is, you are obviously the one with the problem.

Communism is an illusion invented by Marx to justify the dictatorship of the proletariat.

See what I mean?