What If: World War Two

To conquer Britain,enough airplanes were enough.

Briefly: Nope.

In 1940, the Luftwaffe was not and would not be capable of overpowering the RAF to the degree needed to maintain air superiority over the Channel. And even if they could, it would not have helped them much, as they wouldn't be able to seriously damage the Royal Navy anyway. See here: http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/Miscellaneous/Sealion.htm#Air for a specific discussion of why the Luftwaffe's job was hopeless, and the rest of the document for why an invasion in 1940 was basically impossible.

After 1940, economics dictate that the British would consistently be able to keep outproducing the Germans in aircraft. And everything else, making an invasion even more impossible than in 1940. Time would not be working in the Germans' favour.

As an aside, Spain had pretty much nothing they could contribute to the Axis, except for more coastline to guard. Certainly wouldn't help make an invasion of Britain more possible.
 
we need Dachs here :p
*turns on the Dachs signal*

He'll be here any moment now to save the day :)
I hate Second World War althistorical masturbation. :( Especially when the PoD doesn't make any sense. If Hitler were going to decide to not invade the USSR, he'd have done it in the summer and fall of 1940, and presumably the Nazis would have conducted operations against the British in the interval, thus radically altering events long before the PoD.
 
Wait no one has tried to ruin this alternative history thread? DW.

BUTTERFLY EFFECT. There I said it!
 
You should understand that Soviets collapsed because of these mistakes,they decided to break the pact with China,then they were isolated by themselves as USA set up relationship with China at once!
In my opinion,the policy and ideologies of a country should only be decided by its people,and other countries should not try to interfere it.And it's stupid to decide your tactic by your love or hate.In fact,if I really need to become an ally of my original enemy which I hate most,I will take it only because it will be good for me,and for the people in my country.

Although Hitler hate communists,if he learned more from his ancestor,Bismarck,he might be able to learn how to control his mood,and how to make right decisions for the country.So did Stalin.

The Soviets collapsed due to economic stagnation and mismanagement 50 years after WW2. It's true that they probably could have played it better with China and others to prevent being isolated, but I think that just makes my point. Real life nations are not entirely rational, Geopolitics are not like a game of civ and often the enemy of your enemy is still your enemy. I don't think it is possible to overstate how much the USSR and Nazi Germany hated each other and I don't mean just Stalin and Hitler I mean all levels of both parties. A Nazi Soviet alliance against America would be like a modern day US and North Korean alliance against China, or an Israeli Hamas alliance against Fatah. Simply not going to happen, you don't team up with your greatest enemy against a secondary enemy. In fact did you know that the Axis powers treaty was created with to prevent the spread of Communism? It was only later upgraded into a generic mutual protection pact, originally it was only applicable to aggression by the Soviet Union. In fact I'll go out on a limb and say that a US Nazi alliance would be about as likely (perhaps even more likely) than a Nazi USSR alliance.
 
Leifmk,I know that in 1940 it's impossible for Nazi to corss the Channel.
But if they prepare everything carefully in 2-3 years,they could really defeat RAF.Luftwaffe could get jet plane before RAF,and without the war against USSR,Nazi would be able to build more fighters than UK,as in 1943-1945 their productivity was limited by the shortage of resources.They could even import some fighters and bombers from USSR,as it's possible according to the pact.
If the war between Nazi and USSR never break out,RAF would be defeated around 1944.
Without the war against USSR,the time would be working in the Germans' favour.They could wait for their engineers to overcome all the difficulties,and the shortage of resources would not happen at all as the import from USSR continued.
In fact,Nazi produced 64596 fighters in the war,and UK only produced 52871 fighters at the same time.If we exclude the influence of resource shortage after 1943,Nazi might produce over 100000 fighters.But UK might suffer some problems as they would lose north africa,even middle east under such condition.
 
nc-1701,being isolated can lead to economic stagnation.In the game,we know that we should try to maintain at least 2 tech-trade relationships,otherwise we may suffer from technology stagnation.And if we can not open border with at least 2 AI,the income from trade route would reduce greatly.
I have the habit to consider the rank 1 as the greatest enemy for ever,as what we do in the game.In fact,Stalin discovered that USA was far more dangerous than Nazi later,as he could defeat Nazi,but he could not defeat USA.Allowing the strongest to grow out of control is far more dangerous than Nazi,in fact,Nazi did not end USSR,but USA did.

In fact,it's possible that Hitler gave up the plan from beginning,as Hitler completely misjudged the military strength of USSR.In his plan,USSR only had 182 divisions,but in fact,USSR had over 300 divisions and at least 150 reserved divisions.So Hitler killed himself for this fatal mistake later.

Only 2 generations earlier,Bismarck tried hard to maintain peace with Russia,as he knew that the war against Russia and France at same time would lead to disaster.And Napoleon also said that USA and Russia would finally replace UK,as he realized that it's impossible to invade Russia because of extreme cold winter.So if Hitler told all his supporters that he had to maintain peace with USSR,I think his supporters would understand.

At last,if we replace Hitler and Hirohito with Bismarck and Tokugawa,I believe they can obtain the best result possible with perfect self control,as they know what they can do,and what they can't do.
 
Well, to start, I’d say that there was no way Hitler would’ve attack the Soviet Union.
First, the right moment had past, and he’d sent troops that could’ve been used to invade to the Middle East and Africa. His resources were now spent on other things, making a war much more troublesome.
Second, he upset Italy when he refused to assist them in Ethiopia and then worked with Stalin to hammer out a treaty between the Ethiopians and Italians (5th of December). And thus, Italian support in a war against Russia probably wouldn’t be ensured.
Third, it is clear that Hitler sought to consolidate his Empire, the fact that on the 20th of October he pulled hundreds of soldiers off the frontiers to help crush the resistance and that he made peace with the United Kingdoms before taking Egypt, despite the fact that Rommel had Cairo surrounded, might have indicated that Hitler had put world domination on the back burners while he stabilized and legitimatize his rule over Europe.

Stalin on the other, looked to have the upper position. The Soviet’s had recently conquered Finland (5th December) and thus had not only the men on the frontline with Germany, but the position to strike at the Reich.
However, I think it would depend on how much Stalin really wanted to actually destroy Hitler.
First, he’d sacked his top commanders not to long ago, so if he had plans to invade Germany it could have probably been at a later date when Russia was ready for a full-scale invasion.
Second, Germany was now in a very good position, having taken the Middle East and North Africa, as well as several British colonies, and having already shown their military power, it would have been a very daring move to attack.
Third, if Stalin were to attack, it would have just been him against the Axis, with an attack from Japan likely.
I think that war would likely have been avoided between the two Empires. The reaffirming of the Molotov-Ribbentrop non-aggression pact indicates that the two sides sought to kept the mutual peace if at least for the time being.

Now, in the Pacific, it must be noted that Japan had not only taken Wake Island on the 11th (as opposed to “reality” where they took it on the 23rd) but also Hawaii and were gunning for Midway. This would have put them in a strategic position over the United States and given them the upper hand in the start of the war. The Japanese did not seek to conquer America, by all means that was impossible, they only sought to force the Americans into a Pacific Treaty that would have favored Japanese interests in the Pacific Ocean. With the position the Japanese had gained by taking both Hawaii and Wake on the 11th, they would have had optimal striking range/position against the Americans, and would have significantly slowed any American advance.
Now, the way I see it, America would still not have stopped until they took Hawaii, Midway, Wake Island and maybe even Iwo Jima if they were daring, but would have in the end signed a treaty that would have made the Emperor of Japan smile with satisfaction. Not to mention that Japan was likely to be aided by the Germens, and the fact that America was not at war with the Germens would not have helped all that much because (In "reality") I don’t think they really did anything over there until the Japanese were in full retreat.

Another thing to consider is the fact that Africa is now under Axis control, with the exception of Ethiopian East Africa. This meant that the Axis had a substantial resource supply line; giving time they would have been very powerful. I also think that without a war in 1941, and not likely in 42 or 3, the Germans would be likely to develop a nuclear weapon, which he might have given to the Japanese to use against the Americans.

Now, would America attack Europe? Depends on three things, how the war in the Pacific went, the position of Stalin on whether or not he wanted a war with Hitler, and on the position of the UK. However, if America did attack, it would be later on, around 1944-45 or even later, at which point the Germans would have been given enough time to rest up and be prepared for a long-term war against America.
Giving such a scenario, I don’t think America would have had the power to overthrow Germany without the help of the Soviets. Thus FRD would most likely have any plans of an invasion hang on the position of Stalin. If Stalin decided he too wanted peace like Hitler to build up his massive plans for the Soviet Union, then Nazi Germany would have gone on to the next decade and perhaps more. Now it wouldn’t have been a alliance between the Soviets and Nazis, but a “You shoot me, I’ll shoot you, so don’t shoot me” kind of Mutual Ensured Destruction that would have kept the two sides apart. Also, giving a couple years to think, Stalin may have realized that America was a greater threat then Germany and change attitude towards the two parties.
Also, to point out, Hitler did not seek to conquer Britain, note him signing that peace treaty with the King on the 7th of November? At least not at the time being.

And you can’t say that Nazi Germany would just end up collapsing eventually, there are many nations that appeared to be collapsing or should have collapsed but didn’t.

Well, That’s just my two cents.


PS: What does PoD mean?
 
PoD = Point of Departure. It's what you changed.

I don't understand your first paragraph at all, and I frankly haven't the expertise to argue against it from a factual perspective, so I'll just go along with the old standby of "lolalthisting".
 
If Japan still chose to attack USA,they chose death because they could not reduce the productivity of USA.USA would still defeat Japan around 1945.In fact, Isoroku Yamamoto predicted the whole process of war,and told all the Japanese that the war against USA should be avoided,but others did not believe him,and asked him to made a plan for Pacific war,so he chose Attack On Pearl Harbor.
Even Hitler could avoid the war against USSR,he could do nothing to save Japan from destruction.

Under such condition,Stalin should get China from Japan before USA.When Japanese themselves chose death,other sides should only try to divide their lands as fast as possible.Of course,he should not launch a war directly,as he had to consider Hitler's attitude,but he might achieve that goal through helping Mao,as Mao would like to defeat Japan for USSR.
 
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[sarcasm]Why didn't Finland use their vastly superior troops to better use?[/sarcasm]

On a serious note, I'd love to see a WWII where Austria re-unite the empire. I've been trying to simulate that in HoEIII, but I can't lower my neutrality that much.

ACTION- Austria takes control and Annexes Hungry

1. (Pre-Invasion of Poland) It would most likely prevent German Occupation of Austria

2 (After Invasion of Poland) Austria in turn might even become an Axis member

3. (France crushed, Desert campaign on full swing, America clinging on to Isolationism) With two armies in Balkan area (Assuming that Italy still takes Albina), and Italy occupied Libya and Ethiopia, a 3-Way Pincer attack from the Axis crushes the British at Egypt. With no true army in their way, the Axis take control of the Oil fields in the Middle East, which cripples the British.

4. (After Desert campaign) With Lack of their main Oil supply, British troops become mostly Infantry, which get crushed by Blitzkrieg forces. The RAF can't build as much planes, and the Royal Navy can't build as much Ships, so the Axis start pushing them back.

5. (Invasion of Russia) Britain falls. With no more Western Front, the Axis can focus onto a mass invasion of the Comintern. USSR's lack of tech makes the invasion swiftly. USA thinks war is doomed, refuses to enter even after Pearl.

6. (Battles of Moscow and Stalingrad) Axis realizes that they invaded Russia in the Winter. Proceeds to get their ***es kicked until Spring, where they have an advantage again due to lack of a Western Front.

7. (Not on Timescale) Europe side of Russia falls, Russia basically surrenders. Axis moves on to Mongolia, kicks their butt, and the remaining Comintern members surrender.

Hypothetical, I know, but still is a strange possibility.
 
In fact,if Stalin prepared more carefully for the war against Finland,and won the war instead of showed the weakness side in the war,Hitler might not invade USSR at all.
Conquering USSR was completely impossible,especially if Hitler delayed the time of war,as USSR was becoming stronger and stronger.If he launched the war against USSR,he would lose the war.
 
On a completely factual side, your absolutely right. USSR would literally be impossible to conquer, due to size alone. However, Hitler's target was not to conquer the USSR, but just to get to Russia's Oilfields. Had Stalingrad fell, Hitler's Mission would have been a success, and the USSR would had been severely crippled. Also, if you conquer everything /west/ of the Ural Mountains, the USSR really had nothing to send after you, just defend. At that point, it's diplomacy's turn.

Also, in my timescale, the USSR invasion wasn't just Germany. Italy and Austria also sent troops against Ivan. With three armies to fight instead of one, it would make a succesful defense harder to achive.
 
Actually, Germany could have defeated the USSR, assuming either the capture of the oilfields in the Caucasus, OR the fall of Moscow and a few other transport hubs. As it was, Hitler went for both, and gained neither. Also, turning the whole Eastern Front into a violent race war wasn't really in Germany's interests.
 
If we consider the weather,the size and the military strength together,we can easily discover that even Hitler could achieve some of the goal in the process of war,he could not force USSR to surrender,and could not even control all the land west of Ural Mountains.Even USSR lost part of the oil supply,they still had enough oilfields in Siberia and far east,and could even import from Middle east.Losing Moskow would be a blow,but China did not surrender even after the fall of Nanjing and half of the land.
Italy and some other minor sides can be ignored,as they were too weak to make of any use.
For example,Italy only produced 7600 fighters and 2903 bombers in the war,that was only 1/10 productivity of a real superpower at that time.(USA:105378/64572,UK:52871/45953,USSR:78337/29183,Nazi:64596/34402,Japan:35528/14513)
 
If Hitler didn't turn the was with the USSR into a race war, and if he'd pushed for Moscow - potentially killing or capturing Stalin, who refused to leave - or taken the Caucasian oilfields, the Soviet government may well have collapsed or sued for peace. Of course, they may well have continued to fight anyway, but that's something we'll never know, precisely because Hitler turned the Eastern Front into a race war, despite having an entire Russian army defect.

Bear in mind, many Russians were less than impressed with Stalin, and a puppet regime could potentially have ruled European Russia under German auspices. Siberian oil was virtually untapped at the time, so Russia couldn't use it in great quantities, and imports from the Middle East would have to take a long overland route to keep them from the Germans, rendering them inefficient. Also, Nationalist China was very different from Soviet Russia, so the analogy simply doesn't hold up. Not sure why you mention Italy.
 
Frankly in my opinion the only way Nazi Germany could have survived the second world war was if a situation like what Richard Harris described in Fatherland happened, i.e. Lindbergh defeating Rooseveldt in the 1940 elections (I know he never even ran for office in real life but in the book he did and won an improbable victory), Germany managing to suceed in the push on Moscow (which would have necessitated Italy not invading Greece, Barbarossa had to be put off twice to allow the Wehrmacht to save Mussolini's bacon in the Balkans), and Hitler being senible enough not to declare on the US after the Pearl Harbour attack.

Now frankly for all these three things to happen would require a whole series of highly improbable events to occour in the right succession for this to happen. And even then the book (set in the 60's) detailed a ruinous guerilla war against the (US supplied) Soviet forces in the Urals, and many domestic terrrorist attacks being carried out by th "untemenschen" slave population. Also german society was in a state of stagnation nearing collapse due to the internal contridictions within Nazism itself.
 
Germany managing to suceed in the push on Moscow (which would have necessitated Italy not invading Greece, Barbarossa had to be put off twice to allow the Wehrmacht to save Mussolini's bacon in the Balkans),
Why, why, why does this idea keep popping up?
 
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