What is philosophy?

Finally and perhaps most importantly, both of you (judging from past experience) fall into the camp of people who have no idea what it means for a debate to "boil down to semantics" in the pejorative sense of that term. As such, a lot of philosophy seems like "word games" to you two, because you just don't get what it is for a debate to be just word games in the sense that would make the debate silly or unnecessary or unproductive. What is in fact just really careful conceptual analysis, arguments for and against propositions, etc., you both see as "just language games". Perhaps because neither of your respective fields generally uses the level of logical rigor that is needed to make progress in analytic philosophy. So when I tried to show Mark how Kripke's work on identity helps show that mental states can't just be physical states of the brain, he decided in the end that it was "just language games" in some pejorative sense. I still don't get what he meant.


So without going into that old discussion too much, you assert a proof that mental states are not physical states of the brain and we go on for 5 pages to finish with.

Quote:Originally Posted by Mark1031

Are mental states a physical reality? Yes. Thus, they must be made up of some form of matter or energy or in the pattern or arrangement of some form of matter or energy. If this matter or energy is in the skull then we can say by definition that it is part of the brain, that is all that is there. By definition brain state is the arrangement of brain matter and energy. Thus, mental state must physically be brain state unless you place it’s physical manifestation outside of the skull ala Descarte. What am I missing in this argument?

Quote:Originally Posted by Fifty

Well, the idea behind functionalism isn't that mental states are realized non-physically, but that what mental states actually are doesn't depend upon the specific physical substrate at work, but rather that mental states are functional definitions. Consider, by analogy, the concept of a carburetor. A carburetor is whatever fills the carburetor role (regulating gas and air mixture). We don't particularly care about what its physically made of when we are trying to figure out what it is. Now it may be an important question, what a carburetor is made of, to understanding a specific car, but it does not matter in trying to figure out what a carburetor is. It's the same thing with mental states). Pain is just "whatever fills the pain role". Now there are problems with functionalism as well--some people think it collapses into a form of the identity theory--but it is at least an improvement that doesn't lend itself to Kripkean or Multiple-Realization based counterexamples. Plus, it seems to square much better with both the general layman's understanding of mental states, and neuroscience. There are also qualia problems with functionalism, but qualia are a problem for pretty much every theory of mental states.

And you don’t understand why I say it is just language games? Through the course of a brief perusal of some "professional philosophy" on this subject I come across people making dualist arguments and someone asserting premises with that philosophically rigorous preamble “Surely it is the case that…”. What followed the “Surely it is the case that…” is directly contradicted by an extensive neuropsychological literature.

But let’s grant that I am the idiot who cannot understand the importance of this work. I am a neuroscience professor who works on the cellular basis of learning and memory. I am actually a rather prominent member of that community at one of the top schools in the country (yeah I know, what am I doing here). If you can’t explain this to me then who exactly is the audience for this work.

But again I asked for a contribution. Negative conclusions are fine, they can be quite informative. Yet none are specifically listed and explained. If it is a contribution is it agreed upon by all in the field or just an interesting area of debate where some new point is made but countered by some other claim? Can it be explained here in accessible terms? If it is accessible only to the professional philosopher and not to a generally well educated audience, what is the point and why should we trust that philosophers are achieving something rather than just deluding themselves?
 
Its inaccessibility (because of jargon and rules etc) and its lack of demonstrated value outside of its field, make it very hard to get excited about. Why play a game where the price of entry is steep and which has no payoff? If there is a payoff, what is it?

It seems to me that philosophy hides behind itself to keep out the riff raff and to maintain its "clubby" nature. Philosophy needs better marketing if it wants to gain respect from those who cannot see its value. :)

Some areas of philosophy are pretty obscure... but thats true for pretty much every academic discipline. The areas of a given discipline that are of interest for the layman is always limited.

The jargon is all quite necessary. In fact, it is specifically jargon-heavy just to avoid a debate turning into "word games" in the genuine pejorative sense. If we use technical terms are are extremely explicit about what those terms mean, the chances of talking past one-another are diminished. If you try to do philosophy without being really careful with language you end up with the worst sort of continental philosophy (look up e.g. Derrida).

As for demonstrated value outside its field, I'm not so sure bout that either. Of course not every philosophical question has demonstrated value outside its field, but here are a couple examples where it has:

1) Philosophical reflection... and reflection that was very much in the contemporary tradition, helped spur Alan Turings work, which in turn led to computers.

2) Jurisprudential concerns have actively swayed the mindsets of sitting judges. Richard Posner is a prime example.

3) A lot of the major voices of the animal rights movement have been ethicists. Peter Singer being a prime example.

Philosophy is as abstract as it gets, so its no particular surprise that philosophical ideas don't, say, cure cancer. But there is no particular reason to suppose that its thus unimportant. It may not be of much interest to the layman, but philosophy very much does interest many thinkers in other disciplines.

Could you possibly expand on that? I am quite curious.

Are you familiar at all with modal logic and possible world talk? Its kinda annoying to explain this to someone with no background in those areas (if not just read the stuff on wiki or stanford encyclopedia of phil and get back to me)
 
I mean not to sound condescending but I hold that this thread has climbed to the summit of both pretentiousness and selfabsorption thanks not doubt to the liberal use of Arial font combined with superfluous diction circumscribing utterly inane areas of monologue.
 
You are doing famously, but you shouldn't bother too much about this.
If the gentleman you are debating had read the book he recommends, he would (given that he is a philosopher), discovered that Kolakowski's understanding of Marx leaves more than a bit to be desired. Occasionaly when perusing it, one gets the feeling of being here on OT.

Thank you. I was waiting for the day of my job interview, so I had some time to play with :)

Unlike your allegation suggests I haven't mentioned "informed observations on the nature of Leninism"; Kolakowski'sMain Currents of Marxism ( 3 vols., 1978)is a standard textbook.Which makes any conclusion based such remarks null and void.

Your counting ability is flawd. I cannot help that. You have "pointed out" nothing but your opinion, to which you're entitled obviously. I'm still waiting for a valid argument.

I'm sorry. Your eloquence is too much for me. I don't understand much of what you've written here.

JEELEN said:
That seems rather obvious to me: unlike liberalism Marxism emphasizes equality over freedom. I'm well aware of Marxist criticism on "bourgeois" freedom; however, up til this date Marxism nor any of its subsequent schools have substituted anything for it that even comes remotely close. Hence: Historically as well as theoretically... Marxism has little regard for the concept of freedom.

This is a pile of junk. Your conclusion follows not from your premises, as usual. I grant that you may be able to establish a case historically, but I'm really amused by your presumption that you could pin it down to the theory itself, a move that you've so far never been able to justify.

Besides, if you want a substitute for the current mode of thinking, Marxism is abound with it. Maybe if you actually knew anything about what you're talking about, you wouldn't be spouting such rubbish.

JEELEN said:
More 'personal observations' I see - without a single argument to support these. It seems my opponents have as much understanding of Marx as of philosophy.

:lol: Need anything more be said?
 
You do a fine job of cutting, pasting and ridiculizing, I'll grant you and I'm quite confident you can carry it on ad infinitum. But since you haven't added anything substantial following your conclusion that Kolakowski's argument is emotional rather than logical (without actually having knowledge of its content), I see no point in continuing this 'argument'.)

Are you familiar at all with modal logic and possible world talk? Its kinda annoying to explain this to someone with no background in those areas (if not just read the stuff on wiki or stanford encyclopedia of phil and get back to me)

Actually I found Mark1031's post quite informative, thank you. The question was though, could you elaborate? (I wasn't asking if it was annoying, I don't know where that's coming from.)
 
More 'personal observations' I see - without a single argument to support these. It seems my opponents have as much understanding of Marx as of philosophy.
No lad. You are getting this backwards. I wasn't me who started a thread with a toffee nosed attitude and then proceeded to patronize people by thumping an impressive sounding book in their head that it turned out I haven't studied myself.
I believe that was you.
You see, I don't know exactly how I can debate anybody on a topic which they are not aquainted with. And frankly, I am a bit fed up with philosophy in general (studied it for some years in the 80s before I realized its limited utility) and hacks like Kolakowski in particular. Wasn't it for the fact that all crtitcism of Marx, however hackneyed, is lapped up by certain influental groups, he wouldlong ago faded into that obscurity he so richly deserves.
But very well. Here is but a few problems with Kolakowski. and i will keep it short. He doesn't deserve more.
- He presupposes (since he never proves this) that every marxist tradition has some essential character which has corrupted all its main currents.
- He is scholastic. This means that he obviously understands the history of ideas, as well as intellectual traditions as marxism, as the history of texts, rather than adding a sociological and real-life dimension. In short, he has little understanding of the particularities with each historical situation.
- He is reductionistic. He doesn't treat his topic systemthically. Rather he cherry-picks some texts, takes it out of context, and concludes from that. See, for instance, how he treats Marx view on where and when a socialist revolution will happen. Oh sorry, I forgot, you didn't read it.
But it gets worse. He also misunderstands the very method of Marx. Marx was neither your typical Victorian not-so-brilliant social scientist or some mad prophet. Kolakowski is quite simply unable to understand the dialectics of Marx, that this makes his concept much more nuanced than dogmatic bourgeois economics or analytical philosophy. I am not going more into this now, all the time you haven't convinced me about any deeper knowledge about Marx' works either.
Just keep in mind; Marx was a complex thinker. Complex. Thinker. He wrote in a multitude of genres such as political journalism, history and economics where he changes positions more than once. His project was an intellectual quest, not a set of commands. Studying Marx is a devilish enterprise for anybody, he can't be reduced to a few slogans, as Kolakowski does.But perhaps Kolakowski is a case of the fox being able to change colour but not nature. Because I suppose you are aware of the fact that Leszek Kolakowski started out as a hardcore Stalinist lambasting Catholicism in the same manner?
Of course I can see that this is gefundes Fressen for people like Tony Judt, Jon Elster and a myriad of reactionary internetizens, but please don't claim that we are dealng with an important philosopher here. We are not. Both originality and depth is amiss.
I am sorry, but I have little patience for intellectual thugs like Kolakowski, neither do I have for this sorry trend that certain people seem to regard it as their right to write all sorts of rubbish regarding complex systems of ideas. I may not know what philosophy is, but I most certainly know what it is not.



Thank you. I was waiting for the day of my job interview, so I had some time to play with :)
Yes, I know. It is like a drug sometimes. Just look above for some quality waste of time.



:lol: Need anything more be said?
Quite so.:lol: If there was a little less density of trolls around here, I would have started a thread about Marx. But I suffer fools less and less with the years.
 
For people with an actual interest in Marxism, here's a link to important primary and secondary texts:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/philosophy/LPSG/Marx.htm (Not surprisingly, Kolakowski's
Main Currents of Marxism: its Rise, Growth, and Dissolution is listed among the most important secondary sources; as said, it's a classic textbook.)
 
Enough said. If you have anything regarding philosophy to contribute feel free to do so. If you keep off-topic like this I''ll have no choice but to report.
So let me get this right;critique of your sacred cow is off-topic? Yes? Thought so. Not surprised, even.
Yes please, do me a favour, lad. Run to your precious mods. I will simply love to see getting any sort of infraction for daring to present a critique of a philosopher in a thread which is supposed to be about philosophy. Especially when you are the one starting trolling by that little act of bufoonery above (By "quoting" me, I mean..).
Alternatively you could try to grow up, lad. I am afraid that is one of the things that is required to be a philosopher.
Another thing that a philosopher should possess is the ability of critical thinking at least to the extent not to blindly accept authorities. That a book is listed on a reading plan for a university doesn't necesary make it better. In this case it just indicates the poverty in contemporary philosophy, at least concerning Marxism. I will leave out speculations on why this is the case for this time.
But as already stated, I realise the futility in debating with ignorance. So don't worry, I will not disturb your delicate nerve system again. Go on enjoying your "philosophy" "discourse" without my menacing presence.
 
Enough said. If you have anything regarding philosophy to contribute feel free to do so.If you keep off-topic like this I''ll have no choice but to report.

I too find this funny. You post something and when people respond to it pertinently and critically you categorically label the response as off-topic and threaten to report? :lol: In any case, even if it really is off-topic, the originator of off-topic stuff would be none other than yourself, since you posted the content that we're dealing with.

I guess playground tactics acquire new levels of hilarity in Arial.
 
Very funny.The OP is clear enough. You may consider yourselves warned.

Meanwhile, for those interested, I intend to post links to topics touched on in this thread in post #1 and extend those as we go along.
 
So let me get this right;critique of your sacred cow is off-topic? Yes? Thought so. Not surprised, even.
Yes please, do me a favour, lad. Run to your precious mods. I will simply love to see getting any sort of infraction for daring to present a critique of a philosopher in a thread which is supposed to be about philosophy. Especially when you are the one starting trolling by that little act of bufoonery above (By "quoting" me, I mean..).
Alternatively you could try to grow up, lad. I am afraid that is one of the things that is required to be a philosopher.
Another thing that a philosopher should possess is the ability of critical thinking at least to the extent not to blindly accept authorities. That a book is listed on a reading plan for a university doesn't necesary make it better. In this case it just indicates the poverty in contemporary philosophy, at least concerning Marxism. I will leave out speculations on why this is the case for this time.
But as already stated, I realise the futility in debating with ignorance. So don't worry, I will not disturb your delicate nerve system again. Go on enjoying your "philosophy" "discourse" without my menacing presence.

Actually I have a question for you about analytic approaches to Marx (not Kolakowski but others)... would you be available for such a question (via PM or here or whatever)?

You may consider yourselves warned.

:lol: :lol:

You know JEELEN, I have a BA in philosophy from a very strong analytic department. Cribb has many years of studying philosophy. Aelf is at least a decent student of philosophy. There are other people on this forum with quite a good philosophy education as well, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM finds both your understanding of philosophy, your approach to philosophy, and your approach to discussion to be not only completely wrongheaded, but also extremely pretentious. If you are so unreceptive to criticism, philosophy is not for you. It is not about sitting around in a cafe sounding smart by name dropping and using latin/greek/hebrew phrases. It is about carefully and honestly thinking about important questions in as clear a manner as you can without sacrificing analytic rigor. You have massively failed that basic requirement for doing philosophy.
 
@Mark1031 and Fifty

This might be off, but I’ll take a stab that looks at both sides.

I think the idea is that mental states are indeed “caused” by stuff in the brain, but that a particular mental state is not one-to-one paired with a particular arrangement of neurons, synapses, what have you. Rather, there is some element of functionality in the way that the brain states interact, but I’m not sure how much further the field has gone in pure philosophy.

I know Kripke is a genius, but on the other hand, there has to be a better example than this. To make any sense of it, one would have to know a lot of neurobiology to even understand what a brain state is. You have to talk about neurons, synapses that are constantly being built-up and torn down, electrical charges, different functionalities of the various areas of the brain, etc.

And there’s an element of time snuck into this too. What is a particular brain state? An image from t=0.0000001 to t=0.00000015 seconds? Or all the way to 0.0000002 seconds? Defining consciousness in this way seems hairy. It’s trivial that a mental state doesn’t necessarily reduce down to a particular brain state, in this sense. Focusing on the brain state, however, and looking at what information the brain is able to make use of (consciously or unconsciously) there obviously has to be a parallel in the informational content of the brain and the mental state. Throw away all the baggage of what the neurons are doing and what the qualia are; look at what information the brain is actually able to synthesize out of all the mush, and that’s going to be reflected in the mental state. [Side question: unconscious things, like your heart being made to beat, should also count as “consciousness” in this broad, systematic sense, right? And they’re not qualia, right?]

Or to put it differently, your whole life and conscious experience was probably uniquely modeled by your own brain. Kripke seems to be saying that there could be a different arrangement of group-functional objects in a different universe or whatever that could produce your conscious experience. But it would, trivially, have to have the same informational content. To do so, it would have to function exactly like your own brain. Would that be possible without it being, for all intents and purposes, you? Maybe this is what Fifty means by functionalism collapsing into simple identity, though I’m not sure what the philosophical terminology refers to in that case.

I think that’s where Mark is coming in. Up to this point, there’s nothing really that cool being said.

Back to philosophy, though, work in logic has strong implications for work in consciousness, in that its tells us from a mathematical or logical standpoint how the brain works in terms of information. Without getting into technical details, (see Godel’s Incompleteness Theorems, for a starter) with which I’m not myself fluent, there is pencil-and-paper work that has been done, some of it in “philosophy” departments, that fundamentally redefines how we can think about the way that math, and thus human consciousness, and computers, potentially computers with properties resembling our own consciousness, work.

But to be fair, how much of this is math, and how much philosophy, is a fair question.
 
You know JEELEN, I have a BA in philosophy from a very strong analytic department. Cribb has many years of studying philosophy. Aelf is at least a decent student of philosophy. There are other people on this forum with quite a good philosophy education as well, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM finds both your understanding of philosophy, your approach to philosophy, and your approach to discussion to be not only completely wrongheaded, but also extremely pretentious. If you are so unreceptive to criticism, philosophy is not for you. It is not about sitting around in a cafe sounding smart by name dropping and using latin/greek/hebrew phrases. It is about carefully and honestly thinking about important questions in as clear a manner as you can without sacrificing analytic rigor. You have massively failed that basic requirement for doing philosophy.

I welcome any pure critique of pure reason. However, if people with an interest in philosophy cannot have the decency to discuss a topic rationally, I have little patience for such 'comments'. From what Cribb and yourself have posted I gather mostly a basic lack of such common decency. The 'criticism' you're referring to - i.e. the posts so far of aelf and Cribb - have shown no knowledge of matters philosophic nor any understanding of a sensible discussion. Now, if people feel the need to start random monologues, that's fine - but do it on your own thread. I can't wait for some of that 'analystic rigor' you seem so keen on - for instance in discussing topics of interest in your own specialty. There's a reason why this thread is called What is philosophy? and not Ask a philosopher. I do not pretend to be omniscient - and as student of philosophy nor should you. I have invited you to discuss whatever you feel is relevant - not to criticize the way I formulate my sentences or to make whatever personal comments 'students of philosphy' feel entitled to because of their surroundings or whatever other reason moves them to do so.(emotional rather than logical, at any rate, I'd say). If you feel that that is what philosphy is about, I am sorely disappointed.

I do not see why a student of philosophy should be entitled to call the late Kolakowski a 'intellectual thug', while hailing Marx as a 'complex thinker' or to state that
'Sounds like he's more emotional than logical on this issue', while providing no valid arguments to support such an opinion. I'm sorry, if that is all, I'm simply not impressed.

But don't take my word for it that Kolakowski is "
one of the giants of twentieth-century intellectual history", who wrote, according to the Library of Congress, "the most lucid and comprehensive history of the origins, structure, and posthumous development of the system of thought that had the greatest impact on the twentieth century." Kolakowski traces the intellectual foundations of Marxist thought from Plotonius through Lenin, Lukacs, Sartre, and Mao. He reveals Marxism to be "the greatest fantasy of our century...an idea that began in Promethean humanism and culminated in the monstrous tyranny of Stalinism." In a brilliant coda, he examines the collapse of international Communism in light of the last tumultuous decades. Main Currents of Marxism remains the indispensable book in its field."

But I guess some students disagree.
 
I had waited to post an obituary of Kolakowski, because of the time that news of his death became known. So here's the obituary from The Times.

Leszek Kolakowski’s academic field was hard to pin down. He was at once philosopher, historian, theologian, political scientist and literary critic. As a philosopher he radically changed his views several times during his life in ways that reflected the postwar political developments of his native Poland.
He began as an enthusiastic Marxist, becoming chair of Warsaw University’s philosophy department. Later, he became one of the regime’s most outspoken revisionists, advocating a democratic, humanist Marxism. But he then rejected that too, concluding that a democratic communism would be like “fried snowballs”.
His thoughts led to his expulsion from the party and, later on, his sacking from his position at the university. He was forced to flee Poland in 1968, whereupon he took up an international career, teaching on both sides of the Atlantic, at Berkeley and Oxford. By that time he had ceased to regard himself as Marxist, and his professorship at Berkeley left him highly critical of the left wing, in particular of the student New Left.
Despite having a reputation for massive erudition, he was far from being an ivory tower academic. His ideas were often prescriptive, and he formulated the concept of constructing selforganised social groups that would gradually and peacefully expand the spheres of civil society within totalitarian states. Many believe that this directly inspired the dissident movements in Poland in the 1970s that led to Solidarity and the collapse of the communist monopoly of power in 1989.
Leszek Kolakowski was born in Radom, Poland, in 1927. His father was a publicist, and in his youth he was often surrounded by books. He later recalled that when he was a boy, during the German occupation of Poland in the Second World War, he spent a lot of time at a country house reading from its library. After the war he joined the Communist Youth Organisation (ZMP) and enrolled at the University of Lodz to study philosophy. He quickly excelled at his studies and went on to complete a doctorate at Warsaw University in 1953. He taught at Warsaw University from 1950 to 1959 and also at the Polish United Workers’ Party’s school until 1954. He was also a staff member of Po Prostu, a weekly run by communist intellectuals.
Stalin tightened his grip on Poland in 1952 and introduced a new constitution. Workers’ protests ensued and, by 1956, the calls for a relaxation in political repression had reached fever pitch. Kolakowski became one of the leading voices for democratisation in Poland, and the so-called October thaw brought an easing of some of the restrictions on cultural expression.
Although the basic political system had not changed, Polish poets and novelists soon took advantage of the new-found intellectual freedoms. In 1959 Kolakowski wrote an important essay, The Priest and the Jester, in which he confronted Marxist dogmatism with a sceptical eye that was symbolised by the character of the jester. Its publication made him the best-known philosopher in Poland at the time. With courageous indignation, he made thinly veiled criticisms of basic Marxist doctrines and, as a result, he was labelled as a revisionist.
Kolakowski became head of history of modern philosophy at the University of Warsaw in 1959. His career there did not run smoothly. His books were banned and, after a controversial speech that he made in 1966 on the tenth anniversary of the October thaw, he was expelled from the Polish United Workers’ Party. Two years later he was fired from the university, and he escaped from Poland in 1968 with his Jewish wife during the extreme nationalist campaign against “Zionists”. For the next 20 years it was forbidden to refer to his works.
In 1969 Kolakowski taught at the University of California, Berkeley. He arrived at the height of 1960s left-wing US student radicalism. It was a considerable shock for him. The students’ views did not sit well with what he had experienced in Poland and his reputation as a left-wing thinker evaporated as quickly as his Marxist views.
He wrote then: “There are better arguments in favour of democracy and freedom than the fact that Marx is not quite so hostile to them as he first appears.”
Kolakowski’s criticism of the Left became increasingly trenchant as his career developed in the West. In 1978 he wrote three volumes called Main Currents in Marxism. It was a comprehensive overview of the movement and examined the origins and theory of dialectical materialism and his amazement at how communism had “become the rallying point for so many different and mutually hostile forces”.
His critique ran from the Classical philosopher Plotinus, whose work Kolakowski considered foundational, right through to Maoism. At the end of the epilogue of the third volume, he concluded: “At present, Marxism neither interprets the world nor changes it: it is merely a repertoire of slogans serving to organise various interests, most of them completely remote from those with which Marxism originally identified itself.”
Kolakowski came to treat all utopian visions of society with suspicion, believing that their victory would lead to “a totalitarian nightmare and the utter downfall of civilisation”.
However, he also rejected what he considered to be their opposite, namely armchair scepticism, which he thought would condemn us to a “hopeless stagnation”. Thus utopian ideals for society such as the concept of human fraternity could be regarded as a guiding sign and a regulative rather than a constitutive idea. In light of his belief that no perfect model exists for society’s ills, the important thing was to find practical, workable solutions.
After his appointment in the 1970s as a senior research fellow at All Souls College, Oxford, Kolakowski became increasingly interested in ethics, metaphysics and religion. In particular, he wrote about the modern failure of the modern West to provide a workable substitute for Christianity, believing that a cult of reason had, for many, made it unworkable. Furthermore, since religious cosmology was thought by many to have been discredited, he thought that it followed that Christian morality too could no longer guide them either. His criticism then was aimed at how many in the West “try to assert our modernity, but escape from its effects by various intellectual devices, in order to convince ourselves that meaning can be restored or recovered apart from the traditional religious legacy of mankind”.
Kolakowski also attacked what he saw as modernity’s moral pluralism that, he thought, in many instances involved an unthinking homage to the cultures of others. By refusing to make critical value judgments about other civilisations one was, he thought, diminishing the value of one’s own culture. In his essay Looking for Barbarians he argued that there was a need for people to receive a concrete moral education on the difference between right and wrong to maintain society and self-respect.
His profound knowledge of the history of religion led him eventually to deny the idea that science had a monopoly on truth and meaning. Though he considered that modern Christianity represented a painful compromise between the philosophy of Ancient Athens and the mystical texts of Jerusalem, he did not reject its value. Scientific evidence, for him, remained based on an act of faith, just as much as religion. To define science as true simply because it had a more immediate practical application to problem solving seemed arbitrary.
Kolakowski offered a critical analysis of a wide range of arguments for religious beliefs. He sought to understand them through their historical, anthropological and cultural backgrounds. In Christianity, for example, he saw the development of God from a basis in early Greek philosophy of the One, later merged with the Jewish concept of a loving God. Thus he maintained a cultural and human conception of religion.
He also held that rational inquiry could never settle religious questions such as whether or not God exists. Nor could it ultimately provide a satisfactory foundation for morality. His approach was, ultimately, unpalatable to both religious believers, whose faith he explained culturally, and scientists, whose knowledge he thought was ultimately based on faith.
For all the breadth of his intellect and the struggles that he endured in his career, Kolakowski often displayed a surprising vein of humour and self-irony. He wrote a full-length book entitled The Epistemology of the Striptease, and in his book Metaphysical Horror, he observed: “A modern philosopher who has never once suspected himself of being a charlatan must be such a shallow mind that his work is probably not worth reading.”
Kolakowski’s many academic honours included the US Library of Congress Kluge Prize in 2003.
He is survived by his wife, Tamara, and their daughter.
Leszek Kolakowski, philosopher, senior research fellow, All Souls College, Oxford, was born on October 23, 1927. He died on July 17, 2009, aged 81

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article6722105.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=1972202
 
And you don’t understand why I say it is just language games?

Sorry, but it seems to me (and I know very little of wither neuroscience or philosophy) that fifty is right.

Your line or argument is akin to seeing the number one drawn on a paper and saying that "it's a scratch done on an A4 paper sheet, with a nº3 pencil, 4 mm long, with a bend at the end", etc... All those details might be true, but that's not what it is.

I mean not to sound condescending but I hold that this thread has climbed to the summit of both pretentiousness and selfabsorption thanks not doubt to the liberal use of Arial font combined with superfluous diction circumscribing utterly inane areas of monologue.

:goodjob: Someone should have mentioned that earlier!
 
Someone doesn't understand typography.

Anyway, I agree with Fifty on this: philosophy is not about word games - or at least it shouldn't be, IMHO.
 
Sorry, but it seems to me (and I know very little of wither neuroscience or philosophy) that fifty is right.

Your line or argument is akin to seeing the number one drawn on a paper and saying that "it's a scratch done on an A4 paper sheet, with a nº3 pencil, 4 mm long, with a bend at the end", etc... All those details might be true, but that's not what it is.

Sure, but it's also not a number one printed onto yellow paper with blue ink, either. Obviously you and I are both human beings, too, but that doesn't mean we're functionally equivalent in most respects.
 
Or to put it differently, your whole life and conscious experience was probably uniquely modeled by your own brain. Kripke seems to be saying that there could be a different arrangement of group-functional objects in a different universe or whatever that could produce your conscious experience. But it would, trivially, have to have the same informational content. To do so, it would have to function exactly like your own brain. Would that be possible without it being, for all intents and purposes, you? Maybe this is what Fifty means by functionalism collapsing into simple identity, though I’m not sure what the philosophical terminology refers to in that case.


Well I don’t want to rehash this whole argument but you seem to have said something that at least seems more significant than mind is to brain as regulator is to carburetor. Which I consider a word game, at least if you make it sound like a profound insight and it takes 5 pages to get that out of you. So if we constructed something with all the information and processing mechanisms of your specific brain would it be you? Deep. I don’t know, I would guess yes. I do know it would stop being you in the first infinitesimal time increment after its creation because of stochastic events and noise in the system and a different sensory stream.
 
Well I don’t want to rehash this whole argument but you seem to have said something that at least seems more significant than mind is to brain as regulator is to carburetor. Which I consider a word game, at least if you make it sound like a profound insight and it takes 5 pages to get that out of you. So if we constructed something with all the information and processing mechanisms of your specific brain would it be you? Deep. I don’t know, I would guess yes. I do know it would stop being you in the first infinitesimal time increment after its creation because of stochastic events and noise in the system and a different sensory stream.

I'm beginning to think that you just really really don't want philosophy to be important.

Its easy to make something that takes years of intellectual progress sound simple if you're just trying to mock it, like Sarah Palin when she mocked fruit fly research, and I'm sure you know far greater than I do how important the fruit fly has been for research.

The fact is that the argument I cited against the identity theory is quite sophisticated, developed by someone who has made great contributions to philosophy, logic, mathematics, computer science, linguistics, and informatics. You can say after the fact "ooh so simple just language games lol" but in fact it requires a lot of background stuff that you just aren't sophisticated enough in logic to understand, it seems. Either that or you just don't want to understand. The latter probably more than the former, since you're a smart dude.

Its like me going "ooh wow mark you work seems sooo important... testing rat brains all day how monumental!". If I said that you would rightfully consider me a complete idiot with no understanding whatsoever of a) what you were doing, and b) how important it really was.

If these sorts of insights are so easy for you, why not take a few minutes out of your day to advance the discipline of philosophy? The person who gave us that argument against the identity theory was recently voted one of the top philosophers of the last 200 years, so it could at least amuse your fellow scientists at how easy it is to become extremely famous in lesser disciplines.

Also, you still haven't given us any particular insight into what it means to say something just boils down to language games. So far all we've gotten is something like "An argument just boils down to language games if and only if it takes Mark1031 5 pages to understand it, and then dismiss it as obvious and trivial"... surely that isn't the definition you want to convey.
 
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