What is so good about Shakespeare?

[Gori the Grey]

Here's how Shakespeare works in the Anglosphere (or as I like to call it, the Globe), Pangur.

This summer, no one who lives in the Anglosphere probably lives more than 200 miles from some theatrical troupe putting on some Shakespeare play. For the price of admission, you can go watch and enjoy the play. No one will interrogate you, on your way out, as to whether you got its "hidden meaning." If, on the car ride home, you want to share with your friends what meaning you found in the play, that's great and natural. But that won't be different in any way than your doing so after watching some movie together. There is absolutely no mystery here, and certainly no mystery cult.

You are confusing bad high-school instruction in Shakespeare (anything that suggests that there is some hidden meaning to find) with Shakespeare.

And by the way, answer my ***ing question. Give me an example of something you do value, so I can show Shakespeare doing something similar and demystify him for you.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Here's how Shakespeare works in the Anglosphere (or as I like to call it, the Globe), Pangur.

This summer, no one who lives in the Anglosphere probably lives more than 200 miles from some theatrical troupe putting on some Shakespeare play. For the price of admission, you can go watch and enjoy the play. No one will interrogate you, on your way out, as to whether you got its "hidden meaning." If, on the car ride home, you want to share with your friends what meaning you found in the play, that's great and natural. But that won't be different in any way than your doing so after watching some movie together. There is absolutely no mystery here, and certainly no mystery cult.

Well, per my analysis, if people were interrogated about it it wouldn't work well. When the Soviets threw Siberian shamans out of planes to test their ability to fly, they weren't trying to demonstrate the power of the shaman. They were trying to undermine it.

 

[Borachio]

And by the way, answer my ***ing question. Give mean example of something you do value, so I can show Shakespeare doing something similar and demystify him for you.

Big hint: Scottish nationalism.

 

[Gori the Grey]

How does the priesthood track your progress in the mysteries, Pangur, if they don't ask you to display your understanding of them?

 

[Pangur Bán]

How does the priesthood track your progress in the mysteries, Pangur, if they don't ask you to display your understanding of them?

They can't. But they can track your progress in the skill sets they think help you get close to them.


BTW, Gori, no disrespect about not answering your question. I just didn't think it was relevant, you have a theory that if I actually appreciate Shakespeare more or if some childhood episode didn't spoil it, I wouldn't be saying this kind of thing -- but that doesn't have anything to do with it. Understanding how a particular cultural process works and giving in to it have to be different.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I'm under no obligation to correct your misunderstandings, and I'm happy to let you waste your time when you have this kind of attitude.

Willfully obtuse it is, then. Got it. You have absolutely no basis from which to criticize my attitude.

I didn't equate Eureka with Epiphany.

Yes, you did.

Surprisingly enough, there are religions and activities that can be described as 'religious' that aren't Christian.

You equated a term commonly associated with Christianity with a term uttered by an ancient Greek scientist who died over 200 years before Christ was born.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Willfully obtuse it is, then. Got it. You have absolutely no basis from which to criticize my attitude.

No, because you have the option to seek clarification any time you want, you were even invited to, but rejected the opportunity.

Yes, you did.
You equated a term commonly associated with Christianity with a term uttered by an ancient Greek scientist who died over 200 years before Christ was born.[

Already told you I didn't, and if you can't read my posts properly that's not my problem. Incidentally, I would be happy to draw parallels between the two, so it's possible you are only wrong on a matter of fact rather than one of principle.

EDIT: Happy 8000th post to me.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Already told you I didn't, and if you can't read my posts properly that's not my problem. Incidentally, I would be happy to draw parallels between the two, so it's possible you are only wrong on a matter of fact rather than one of principle.

Then please do.

 

[Gori the Grey]

They can't. But they can track your progress in the skill sets they think help you get close to them.


BTW, Gori, no disrespect about not answering your question. I just didn't think it was relevant, you have a theory that if I actually appreciate Shakespeare more or if some childhood episode didn't spoil it, I wouldn't be saying this kind of thing -- but that doesn't have anything to do with it. Understanding how a particular cultural process works and giving in to it have to be different.

On your way out of thetheater no one will ask you to demonstrate your skills in literary analysis either.

You boast to Valka that if asked a straight question you'll give a straight answer. I don't care about you. I'm disputing your claim on behalf of others here whose bad high school instruction in S may have made him feel like a mystery and who might therefore be attracted to your largely misleading analogy.

 

[Pangur Bán]

On your way out of thetheater no one will ask you to demonstrate your skills in literary analysis either.

You boast to Valka that if asked a straight question you'll give a straight answer. I don't care about you. I'm disputing your claim on behalf of others here whose bad high school instruction in S may have made him feel like a mystery and who might therefore be attracted to your largely misleading analogy.

If you are disputing my analogy then you are doing it in a very mysterious () way.

My analogy doesn't mean you can't understand more about Shakespeare by studying him, of course you can, I even stated that. What I did sort of say is that most Anglophones don't understand Shakespeare's language but still attend his plays and make assertions about how great he is and how great his language is, and about the inner deep meanings and so forth; and I'm also happy to acknowledge that they generally come away with an such an experience and believe it to be reality. Indeed that is one reason the process is like that of many 'religious' processes.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Then please do.

Both words actually have religious use in Greek, Christian and pre-Christian (if you don't know, Greek is the language of the New Testament and of many of the most important Church Fathers). The idea that there is something 'out there', and that some process will 'reveal it'.

The modern West's Science v. Religion construct is not actually very helpful in understanding religious history, tends to divide up things that are better understood together ... but that's another matter.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Nvm. Shouldn't try to have such a conversation using my phone.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Then maybe we're on the same page after all. All I want is for people to have a great experience with S and you say they do.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I just wish to thank whichever mod finally fixed the spelling in the subject bar. This is the only spear shaking which should occur in this forum:

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I just wish to thank whichever mod finally fixed the spelling in the subject bar. This is the only spear shaking which should occur in this forum:

I asked nicely, and somebody obliged.

 

[Borachio]

I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill (actually I do, that would be quite a neat thing to do, now I think about it) but even poor old Willy himself couldn't spell his own name consistently. Variously signing his name as:

Willm Shakp
William Shaksper
Wm Shakspe
William Shakspere
Willm Shakspere
By me William Shakspeare

(Though at least two of those are pretty popular ways of abbreviating one's name. Apparently.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling_of_Shakespeare's_name

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Both words actually have religious use in Greek, Christian and pre-Christian (if you don't know, Greek is the language of the New Testament and of many of the most important Church Fathers). The idea that there is something 'out there', and that some process will 'reveal it'.

The modern West's Science v. Religion construct is not actually very helpful in understanding religious history, tends to divide up things that are better understood together ... but that's another matter.

Whatever.

The fact is, Shakespeare isn't some mysterious cult literature. His intended audience was always the common people.

That's not to say it can't be analyzed; my own high school English teacher had us dissecting and analyzing the plays in a dry, academic way along with reading them and writing essays. It wasn't until I saw it actually performed live that the plays really came alive for me, and when I saw them on stage and on TV and in the movie theatre (I saw Henry V twice in the same week ), I was not remotely in the frame of mind to dissect them as I'd been taught to do in school. I just sat back and enjoyed them. And later, when I had Henry V on VHS, my grandmother watched and enjoyed it - and her only prior exposure to even a little Shakespeare was attending a performance of Kiss Me, Kate (I was working backstage on the properties crew on that show).

How cult-like can it be, when there was a Flintstones episode about it? In that story, Fred played Romeorock, Wilma played Julietstone, Gazoo was the prompter, and the balcony scene literally brought the house down!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

He very likely also went by the name "Bill Shakeshaft" for a while. During those years when we don't have records of where Shakespeare was, we have plenty of records of a Shakeshaft in the place where we assume be probably was.

 

[ummmm........]

I think the inclusion of the induction helps a modern viewer of Shrew find Kate's closing speech a little less offensive, but yeah, that play doesn't really do much to support the idea that Shakespeare is timeless . . .

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I think the inclusion of the induction helps a modern viewer of Shrew find Kate's closing speech a little less offensive, but yeah, that play doesn't really do much to support the idea that Shakespeare is timeless . . .

Some parts are. After all, Petrucchio wants to marry a rich bride (or at least one who comes with a rich dowry). You can't tell me there aren''t guys who are more interested in a woman's finances than they are in her as a person in her own right.

I myself was taught throughout my childhood and teen years that I had no right to my own opinion, because girls just don't. And after I turned 18, my grandfather upped his criteria to "you don't have the right to your own opinion until you're independent, but if you get married, your husband's opinion is your opinion, too."

Guess why I never married? (one of the reasons, anyway) And by the time I was of the age when most modern women leave home, my grandparents needed me to stay and help them.

It took YEARS to deprogram from all that stuff he'd drilled into me all that time.

So some aspects of the play that deal with women's rights to speak up and hold an opinion contrary to that of the male head of the household are still stuck in centuries past. Just ask any dedicated female Tea Party supporter what a woman's proper place is.