What is the best UB?

[Ghpstage]

The Persian apothecary is another highly underrated UB, but instead we've got things like the obelisk, trading post, madrassa, and pavillion.

When was the last time the apothecary won a game more or less by itself? Despite the AP being cheesy its still a victory condition, and the obelisk and madrassa can pretty much guarantee the AP build and building it is the hard work toward winnning with it.
Even if the VC is unpopular, its hard to justify keeping game winning UBs out of the running for best

My vote is for the Sac Altar however

 

[Iranon]

Sacrificial Altar narrowly edges out Rathaus for me. Available early on, with great potential.

The Forum is one of the weaker UBs. Type of bonus is nice, but it's lacking raw power. 4 times the additional effect of any halfway decent UB is more powerful than any leader trait.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I voted the Terrace. It's a very good UB that comes the earliest. Timing counts. If it was just a matter of best you might be voting for the Research Institute or the Mall which are powerful but come soo late.

Perhaps the terrace looks better because it's attached to Inca.

On these polls you always see a lot of options that don't belong there. That's so we can go bug-eyed over some of the choices. If it only listed the 6 or 7 that belong there it'd be a short thread. Including almost all of them guarantees somebody backing a poorer UB and generating discussion.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What we're looking for is indeed how much one would expect to get out of a UB, on average, on a game-to-game basis. Terrace is amazing because it accelerates growth that much faster by actually letting you queue granary before monument...but it also saves the on the monument outright...and it provides these things very early in the game, which is a very high PV. Terrace is a top tier UB for sure, and one of the few that are paired with a top-tier UU.

I'm not disagreeing about the value of the terrace. It just strikes me that a lot of what is being said would fit better under a question about better civilizations than better UB. The Incas are a strong civ because (among other things) their UB replaces the granary, meaning it will get built a lot.

A civ could have a really great UB with terrific benefits, and in a conversation just about UBs it might deserve mentioning...even if the other aspects of that civ wouldn't incline you to ever build one.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I voted the Terrace. It's a very good UB that comes the earliest. Timing counts.

Technically, monument UUs are earlier, and the Ikhanda definitely is .

 

[Antilogic]

While I'm a solid fan of the terrace, altar, ikandha, and rathaus, I also appreciate the Mayan ball court given that Pacal has the Expansive trait. You already have bonus health for large populations, and as far as the happy-hammer ratio goes, that ball court is a pretty solid build (especially if you are happy-resource poor and markets aren't a decent option yet).

Based on the sheer number of bonuses associated with it, I'm also a fan of the Greek odeon (it's basically an extra theatre with bonuses instead of a colosseum). Might not make the top 5, but it's in my top 10 for sure, alongside the cothon. Hell, I would even consider it a tie for the #5 spot, now that I think about it.

 

[maurcus]

25% when running an "average" slider ~50% isn't impressive at all unless you're rocking a 100 city or something, and that's assuming you can't broker for gold. Most of the time, those are much spent elsewhere, or even on wealth (it would take an eternity for a 10-20 city to catch just straight building wealth).

That means that generally speaking, outside of a bur cap or HUGE shrine/crop HQ type city, markets are generally a sub-par choice as a structure and a bad build in general. When they can become worth it, however, is when you have 3-4 out of fur, ivory, silk, and whale. At that point, the / ratio is pretty favorable and unlike HR garrison it doesn't charge maintenance...and the pittance of gold it gives is just a welcome bonus over the 4 .

Thanks for the information and i usually have to build a market because i play very tall and an almost entire mercantilism which means almost no trading with the AI.

 

[Doshin]

The Ikhanda beats the Rathaus for me. The Sacrificial Altar is best. Top five would be something like:

1. Sacrificial Altar
2. Ikhanda
3. Rathaus
4. Terrace
5. Citadel/Cothon

The Trading Post would take position #4 on the right map.

A Mint is good as well, but mainly because the base building is excellent and the UB offers an additional boost.

EDIT: the Obelisk is obviously the best if AP cheese is considered fair game.

 

[Skipity]

Terrace.

Look at it this way: Is Monty OP?

No.

Would the Incas be better with Sac Alter over Terrace?

No.

Would Monty (or any non creative civ*) be better with the terrace than with the alter?

Yep!

Are we so worried about cruel oppression sentiments that we're deciding NOT to whip sometimes?

Sure - sometimes . . . but not too often.

 

[Skipity]

The Ikhanda beats the Rathaus for me. The Sacrificial Altar is best. Top five would be something like:

1. Sacrificial Altar
2. Ikhanda
3. Rathaus
4. Terrace
5. Citadel/Cothon

The Trading Post would take position #4 on the right map.

A Mint is good as well, but mainly because the base building is excellent and the UB offers an additional boost.

EDIT: the Obelisk is obviously the best if AP cheese is considered fair game.

I don't get the Ikhanda love. How much do 15 Ikhanda save you in maintenance? 10 Commerce?!?

How much do 7 save you? . . . 3?

Color me unimpressed.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Would the Incas be better with Sac Alter over Terrace?

No.

I question the accuracy of this particular assumption.

I don't get the Ikhanda love. How much do 15 Ikhanda save you in maintenance? 10 Commerce?!?

Courthouses do not ever save commerce. They save gold. The gold they save is applied as pre-multiplier by allowing a higher slider (or longer at 100%). The expected gains from the ikhanda in the BCs aren't as high as FIN, but they're high enough to be substantial on a building you can access immediately and as-needed.

 

[Skipity]

Which Civ would be stronger: Mali with a Terrace or Inca with Sac ALter?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Which Civ would be stronger: Mali with a Terrace or Inca with Sac ALter?

Skirmishers are crazy in MP, but in SP definitely Inca.

 

[Skipity]

Just grabbed the save from:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10993683&postcount=28

Loaded it up: 10 cities.

Worldbuilder out those Ikhanda.

Here are the results:

Spoiler :

Before:

And After:

Sorry, but that's worse than a Ger, worse than a Hammam, worse than a Baray . . . and not even in the same ballpark as a Terrace or Sac Alter.

I might entertain an argument that it's better than a Citadel or a Dike, but #2 best building?

I just don't see it.

 

[Skipity]

Perfect civ (for me) would be:

Fin / Spiritual with Terrace and Fast Worker (MAYBE Prat). Start techs of the wheel and Agg.

 

[Gwynnja]

Perfect civ (for me) would be:

Fin / Spiritual with Terrace and Fast Worker (MAYBE Prat). Start techs of the wheel and Agg.

Terrace might be closer to the alter with an expansive civ. Agree on your choice of starting techs and UU (fast worker, not praet.)

 

[Skipity]

Some of these are just laughable. The dun?

I remember Building the Dunn and then building Horse archers, warriors, axemen and macemen.

And then being like WTH?!? are these not to be included in the phrase:

"The Dun gives the Guerilla I promotion to land units constructed in the city."

The only thing wrong with the Dun is the name: they left out the trailing "g"

 

[Gwynnja]

I remember Building the Dunn and then building Horse archers, warriors, axemen and macemen.

And then being like WTH?!? are these not to be included in the phrase:

"The Dun gives the Guerilla I promotion to land units constructed in the city."

The only thing wrong with the Dun is the name: they left out the trailing "g"

Could you imagine Horse Archers with Guerrilla I? That's what I call a unique unit.

 

[Doshin]

@Skipity

Spoiler :

The advantage of the Ikhanda lies in the base building's utility, its instant availability, and its synergy with Shaka's traits.

Barracks can be built immediately. They cost half as much for an Aggressive leader like Shaka, and Barracks are often good builds for Aggressive leaders anyway. Aggressive Warriors begin with Combat I, and so a Barracks provides instant access to the Cover promotion. Consequently, there is no need to self-tech Archery (= saved beakers) and Warriors may be built instead of Archers (= saved hammers).

Shaka's Expansive trait makes it very easy to expand (cheap Workers, cheap Granaries) and the Ikhanda allows the player to do so without crashing his or her economy. If you take a game save from 1000 AD, that is largely missing the point. The building, when properly utilized, allows the player to grab one or two extra cities in the REXing period of the game, or else research a good Classical technology three or four turns sooner. These early commerce savings quickly snowball.

The Terrace is a truly excellent building, but its benefits can be accrued (in an abbreviated form) through Monuments or religious spread. This is why I rate it marginally lower than the Ikhanda, and considerably below the Sacrificial Altar.

 

[Skipity]

@Skipity

Spoiler :

. . . and the Ikhanda allows the player to do so without crashing his or her economy. If you take a game save from 1000 AD, that is largely missing the point. The building, when properly utilized, allows the player to grab one or two extra cities in the REXing period of the game, or else research a good Classical technology three or four turns sooner . . .

I can't find any ~200 BC deity or immortal saves of Shaka to do the same experiment. But I've yet to see a value of >1 Gold from the BUG mod for building it BC. Generally it says something like .27 Gold or some such weakness.

Might be time for a Deity Graduate School with Shaka as Der Leader so we'll have more saves to look at?