What is the US up to with regard to Iran?

Its not leftist bro, its corporate media. Actual leftists have zero interest in another BS war.
ı live in Turkey and we have very few Leftist media left , even if they do have the annoying tendency to call my mother once every month , because she had once bought stuff from a phone number advertised on TV . Their jubilation lays in the fact Eurasia have punched the West and the West looks like powerless to punch back .

It is almost funny how clear the US is jumping at the chance to blast Iran.

doing a real poor job it though . America is like totally afraid of going to war under Trump .

It's both good and kind of disappointing. One no longer needs to come here to argue for caution in attribution!

This was a rather weird event because there were no obvious winners from it on the Iran-US conflict. Both sides need to deescalate for internal political reasons and this did not help. I wonder if it was related to the vote on weapons exports and, say, a privately contracted job on behalf of some local rulers?

bolton said it wasn't the Nepalese , so obviously they are the Nepalese ! Never underestimate America and its ambitions to find trouble .
I am thoroughly confused about this.

is the Iranian navy, knowing it wll be sunk in a war, at odds with the Republican Guard?

the Iranian Republican Guard has developed over time , they are still zealots low down but their command echelons are quite happy doing business with them infidel Russians and what not . America blames Republican guard , because it's always profitable to invoke the SS of WW II Germany .

Ostensibly, they would remove the mine so that any investigation team couldn't recover it and deduce that it is an Iranian mine.

the skip is Kokura or Kakuka and USS Bainbridge kindly reminded the world it's the authority on the spot after failing to reach Altair in time , so Americans can replant any number of Iranian mines as they please . You know , Iranians are all idiots who don't know IR cameras are as good as ordinary TV these days and you will be filmed .

It is also easier to attach them above the waterline, because you don't need divers. And incidentally, divers are harder to film during the supposed cover-up operation.

you would have to climb up a ship which is still moving . Limpet mine in harbour makes sense as you could swim in , attach one and get lost , sight unseen . Because Limpets are so WW II and America does not want liberal losers in the West alarmed , they will want you to believe Iranians are using pizza delivery drones to attach limpets above water .
 
copy paste function looked like acting up so a new qoute

Also, where are you getting the British preferring the Saudis to the Hashemites? The Brits spent most of the 20s, 30, 40s, and 50s trying to prop up the Hashemite client kingdoms they spread throughout the Middle East. Indeed, in 1956 Britain was semi-seriously considering armed intervention against Israel in favor of Jordan with Operation Cordage to secure the Anglo-Jordanian Treaty of 1948 and prop up the Hashemites as a counterweight to Nasser.

but the Hashemites were claiming to be caliphs , betrayed by the West . Having them ejected from the custodianship of Mekke and Medine made them more pliable and nothing like a security risk , even with the silly theories of Kemal making a return to the Middle East to correct a griveance .
 
Why focus on Iran, r16, when you can focus on the creation of a new superpower in our region. I mean apparently Erdogan thinks you are China, Russia or US level. "Doesn't afraid of anything" :P
 
your pals on total war forum are asleep , PM last week declared Army of Petrol was the strongest army in the world . Assures me to assure that it should never be given the chance to prove the truthfullness of the statement .
 
your pals on total war forum are asleep , PM last week declared Army of Petrol was the strongest army in the world . Assures me to assure that it should never be given the chance to prove the truthfullness of the statement .

Reminds me of how Sadam's army was supposedly the fourth strongest in the world, likewise, then got obliterated.
 
the difference lays in how the Iraqis didn't have a Starfleet , right ? Everyone knows which one is the joke , New Turkey or Turkey .
 
There is no actual lefty MSM in America. Just look at how US media covers Sanders or issues like single payer, free college etc. Congress has increased the military budget by nearly twice what itd take to cover Bernies community college plan. Nobody batted an eye at that but if you talk about giving the common folk post secondary education tuition free it's "how you gonna pay for that?"

The only thing "left" about CNN and MSNBC is that they're cool with gays and abortion. They barely even mention climate change, the gutting of unions, etc.

Americans are not afraid of war under Trump. Just tired of war in general. Trump can manage fine in a war. Hes not much dumber than Bush. The military can essentially run on autopilot as scary as that sounds. We've just been in constant conflict for almost two decades now. We're starting to see what a complete waste it is fiscally and in human life.
 
There is no actual lefty MSM in America. Just look at how US media covers Sanders or issues like single payer, free college etc. Congress has increased the military budget by nearly twice what itd take to cover Bernies community college plan. Nobody batted an eye at that but if you talk about giving the common folk post secondary education tuition free it's "how you gonna pay for that?"

The only thing "left" about CNN and MSNBC is that they're cool with gays and abortion. They barely even mention climate change, the gutting of unions, etc.

Americans are not afraid of war under Trump. Just tired of war in general. Trump can manage fine in a war. Hes not much dumber than Bush. The military can essentially run on autopilot as scary as that sounds. We've just been in constant conflict for almost two decades now. We're starting to see what a
complete waste it is fiscally and in human life.

As a leftist what I have to say is incredibly painful but I'm going to say it anyway.

The military is not really a waste in the narrow sense. I think it is a tremendous waste in the big-picture, "we could be doing something else with all these resources" sense, but that is a separate conversation.

The US military is, imo anyway, a proof-of-concept for large government programs that have significant economic impacts. It employs millions of people directly and indirectly, taking lots of people out of poor backgrounds and bad situations and giving them useful skills and connections. It spends enormous sums on housing, benefits, employment and so on.

When liberals talk about cutting military spending many people hear it similarly to how people on Medicaid hear the Republicans talk about cutting "entitlements". Just something to keep in mind.

edit: and btw the tangible benefits of military spending are why it's practically impossible to cut the military budget. Everyone, even the Republicans, would like to cut it in theory and then it never actually happens because everyone is like "well in my district there's such-and-such contractor that employs four hundred people and it would look really bad if all those people got laid off..."

We need to have an honest conversation about this, and make people realize that the things they like about military spending can be delivered far more efficiently by a proper jobs program, like a job guarantee. It makes very little sense to employ people in capital-intensive work building machines that are designed to kill people (and many of which are single-use because they blow up when used) when we could be employing people to do useful stuff here at home.
 
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The only thing "left" about CNN and MSNBC is that they're cool with gays and abortion. They barely even mention climate change, the gutting of unions, etc.

which, ironically, isn't even a leftist position, nor a socialist one. "leftist" in the traditional sense has nothing to do with identity politics, and neither Marx nor Engels were even egalitarians. the current "progressivism" is deeply centrist, and has at its heart not the idea of all people being equal, but rather of all people being united in their function as productive members of society: women go in the workforce, gays can get tax deductions for being married, can adopt children etc. women, poc and lgbtq people are great! as long as they're productive and play along with all the implicit rules. true equality was never a goal, and also is not a goal of contemporary idpol.
 
neither Marx nor Engels were even egalitarians.

Idk so much about Engels but Marx not being an egalitarian strikes me as a bold claim. Maybe I'm a bit biased because I've read more of his younger work than his "mature" work but I think of him as a consummate humanist and egalitarian.

and also is not a goal of contemporary idpol.

This is lumping stuff together where important distinctions exist. "Idpol" as it exists today definitely started as a movement for equality; it started as a movement aiming to fix the problems with the revolutionary socialist left as it existed at the time.

The mainstream form of 'idpol' that has every business in DC hanging out rainbow bunting for Pride is what you say it is though. Like ironically the movement for 'marriage equality' is conservative in that it is asking for acceptance of gay people into the traditional paradigm, rather than demanding an end to the traditional paradigm. A lot of mainstream 'idpol' is like that, like Sheryl Sandberg's "leaninism" which basically says women can achieve social equality by hiring nannies to raise their children while they work 80 hour weeks.
 
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. This fundamental idea already betrays one aspect of egalitarianism: The idea that all people are equal. Of course this tenet of egalitarianism was always stupid, and the important thought behind egalitarianism is not the idea that all people are equal, but that all people deserve equal rights and opportunities.

But even then, Marx and Engels were explicitly anti-egalitarian. Quoting Engels from a letter:

"The concept of a socialist society as a realm of equality is a one-sided French concept deriving from the old “liberty, equality, fraternity,” a concept which was justified in that, in its own time and place, it signified a phase of development, but which, like all the one-sided ideas of earlier socialist schools, ought now to be superseded, since they produce nothing but mental confusion, and more accurate ways of presenting the matter have been discovered."

Again, quoting from an Anarcho-Communist essay that itself quotes Engels:

In March 1875 Engels complained in a letter that the programme mistakenly advocated “[t]he elimination of all social and political inequality”, rather than “the abolition of all class distinctions”. For Engels, the goal of total social equality was impossible and represented the ambitions of an under-developed form of socialism. He wrote,

“As between one country, one province and even one place and another, living conditions will always evince a certain inequality which may be reduced to a minimum but never wholly eliminated. The living conditions of Alpine dwellers will always be different from those of the plainsmen. ” (Engels 1875)

They explicitly say that complete equality is unhelpful as a political goal, and argue instead for the abolition of class distinctions as a specific goal.

Another quote from the same essay, this time referencing Marx's text about the Gotha Program:

"[...] Marx claims that advocating equality along one dimension, such as everyone in a society earning the same amount of money per hour worked, will lead to inequality along other dimensions. Everyone earning an equal amount per hour of work would, for example, lead to those who work more having more money than those who work less. As a result, those unable to work a large amount (if at all) such as disabled people, old people, or women who are expected to do the majority of housework, will be unequal with those who can work more, such as the able-bodied, young people, or men. Or those doing manual labour, and so unable to work long hours due to fatigue, will be unequal to those who engage in non-manual labour and so can work more hours. If a society decides to instead ensure equality of income by paying all workers the same daily wage then there would still be inequality along other dimensions. For example, workers who don’t have to provide for a family with their wage will have more disposable income than workers with families. Therefore we can never reach full equality but merely move equality and inequality around along different dimensions."

From this statement you could almost deduce that Marx was not in favor of equal pay per se, but rather of his own doctrine "From each..".

Now Marx was definitely a humanist, but that's to be seperated from being an egalitarian by any means.

This is lumping stuff together where important distinctions exist. "Idpol" as it exists today definitely started as a movement for equality; it started as a movement aiming to fix the problems with the revolutionary socialist left as it existed at the time.

The mainstream form of 'idpol' that has every business in DC hanging out rainbow bunting for Pride is what you say it is though. Like ironically the movement for 'marriage equality' is conservative in that it is asking for acceptance of gay people into the traditional paradigm, rather than demanding an end to the traditional paradigm. A lot of mainstream 'idpol' is like that, like Sheryl Sandberg's "leaninism" which basically says women can achieve social equality by hiring nannies to raise their children while they work 80 hour weeks.

I agree with your point, and I recognize the roots of the movement. when I refer to "idpol" I am generally talking about the recent mainstream phenomenon, not its historical roots. You could trace those roots back indefinitely, but that doesn't do much good. I believe most ideas corrupt overtime: like when enlightenment lead to race science.

at the core is often something worthwhile. I think people can get a lot out of Judith Butler's books if they read them, especially if they read them critically. I think intersectional feminism has some good ideas. but those are really insignificant for the real world. Butler is instrumentalized, both from the left and the right, as a stand-in or as a straw woman.

I think this particular kind of discourse is something we will see more and more of in the future. even now, when I post on Reddit for example, people genuinely reply to me having no ****** idea of what I meant, or what I expressed. their entire post is based on some weird projection, of something they wanted to see in my text, they get hung up over one word and lose sight of the actual meaning.

all of this is only going to worsen with deep fakes, when we finally reach the point where we can make anyone say or do anything. when it will be absolutely impossible to distinguish the simulation from the real. I think we're in for a degree of corruption (not the money-laundering kind..) that we've never experienced before. Baudrillard argued that even in the 80s, we've already come very close to extinguishing all that is true and real. today, his writings seem more prothetic than ever.
 
I think this particular kind of discourse is something we will see more and more of in the future. even now, when I post on Reddit for example, people genuinely reply to me having no ****** idea of what I meant, or what I expressed. their entire post is based on some weird projection, of something they wanted to see in my text, they get hung up over one word and lose sight of the actual meaning.

all of this is only going to worsen with deep fakes, when we finally reach the point where we can make anyone say or do anything. when it will be absolutely impossible to distinguish the simulation from the real. I think we're in for a degree of corruption (not the money-laundering kind..) that we've never experienced before. Baudrillard argued that even in the 80s, we've already come very close to extinguishing all that is true and real. today, his writings seem more prothetic than ever.

Hehehehe. On Reddit?

That's the thing with talking to ******* strangers. The voices in thier head are worth more to them than the potential of you. Good luck.

But yes, deep fakes will require pulling back the degree of "progress" we use technology for to determine truth, or we will just have to give up on truth. The internet has never actually been a particularly good place for it.
 
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. This fundamental idea already betrays one aspect of egalitarianism: The idea that all people are equal. Of course this tenet of egalitarianism was always stupid, and the important thought behind egalitarianism is not the idea that all people are equal, but that all people deserve equal rights and opportunities.

But even then, Marx and Engels were explicitly anti-egalitarian. Quoting Engels from a letter:

"The concept of a socialist society as a realm of equality is a one-sided French concept deriving from the old “liberty, equality, fraternity,” a concept which was justified in that, in its own time and place, it signified a phase of development, but which, like all the one-sided ideas of earlier socialist schools, ought now to be superseded, since they produce nothing but mental confusion, and more accurate ways of presenting the matter have been discovered."

Again, quoting from an Anarcho-Communist essay that itself quotes Engels:

In March 1875 Engels complained in a letter that the programme mistakenly advocated “[t]he elimination of all social and political inequality”, rather than “the abolition of all class distinctions”. For Engels, the goal of total social equality was impossible and represented the ambitions of an under-developed form of socialism. He wrote,

“As between one country, one province and even one place and another, living conditions will always evince a certain inequality which may be reduced to a minimum but never wholly eliminated. The living conditions of Alpine dwellers will always be different from those of the plainsmen. ” (Engels 1875)

They explicitly say that complete equality is unhelpful as a political goal, and argue instead for the abolition of class distinctions as a specific goal.

Another quote from the same essay, this time referencing Marx's text about the Gotha Program:

"[...] Marx claims that advocating equality along one dimension, such as everyone in a society earning the same amount of money per hour worked, will lead to inequality along other dimensions. Everyone earning an equal amount per hour of work would, for example, lead to those who work more having more money than those who work less. As a result, those unable to work a large amount (if at all) such as disabled people, old people, or women who are expected to do the majority of housework, will be unequal with those who can work more, such as the able-bodied, young people, or men. Or those doing manual labour, and so unable to work long hours due to fatigue, will be unequal to those who engage in non-manual labour and so can work more hours. If a society decides to instead ensure equality of income by paying all workers the same daily wage then there would still be inequality along other dimensions. For example, workers who don’t have to provide for a family with their wage will have more disposable income than workers with families. Therefore we can never reach full equality but merely move equality and inequality around along different dimensions."

From this statement you could almost deduce that Marx was not in favor of equal pay per se, but rather of his own doctrine "From each..".

Now Marx was definitely a humanist, but that's to be seperated from being an egalitarian by any means.

Sorry dawg, but I don't buy it. These quotes read as more branding to distinguish the "scientific" socialists from the "utopians". The point of abolishing class divisions and class rule was to create the society where "the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all." That's about as egalitarian as you can get and there is no doubt that Marx's underlying philosophy incorporated the idea of human equality, the equal dignity and worth of all persons. The scientific socialists' argument was that they understood, according to their own ideas, that moralizing alone wouldn't make a moral society.

You seem to be reasoning as though egalitarianism means a single-minded obsession with equality of outcome alone but I don't think that definition makes much sense.
 
As a leftist what I have to say is incredibly painful but I'm going to say it anyway.

The military is not really a waste in the narrow sense. I think it is a tremendous waste in the big-picture, "we could be doing something else with all these resources" sense, but that is a separate conversation.

The US military is, imo anyway, a proof-of-concept for large government programs that have significant economic impacts. It employs millions of people directly and indirectly, taking lots of people out of poor backgrounds and bad situations and giving them useful skills and connections. It spends enormous sums on housing, benefits, employment and so on.

When liberals talk about cutting military spending many people hear it similarly to how people on Medicaid hear the Republicans talk about cutting "entitlements". Just something to keep in mind.

edit: and btw the tangible benefits of military spending are why it's practically impossible to cut the military budget. Everyone, even the Republicans, would like to cut it in theory and then it never actually happens because everyone is like "well in my district there's such-and-such contractor that employs four hundred people and it would look really bad if all those people got laid off..."

We need to have an honest conversation about this, and make people realize that the things they like about military spending can be delivered far more efficiently by a proper jobs program, like a job guarantee. It makes very little sense to employ people in capital-intensive work building machines that are designed to kill people (and many of which are single-use because they blow up when used) when we could be employing people to do useful stuff here at home.
Eh cutting wasn't exactly my point. I was mostly using that to point out that the alarmism over spending gets a complete pass with the military but beneficial domestic programs with the same pricetag are somehow going to be a burden on taxpayers.

While it does produce workfare it's also a great source of examples for government inefficiency and waste. That gives the right plenty of ammo to throw back at people who suggest infrastructure, healthcare, etc spending. The recent Pentagon audit was a trainwreck with billions of dollars being unaccounted for.

A better source of workfare would definitely be infrastructure spending. Roads, bridges, flood mitigation, drinking water, etc would be more beneficial to the country and employ people who are actually in need. I'm fairly certain the robotics plant in my district would be more likely to ship in a foreign engineer than to train an American in need of a job.
 
Hehehehe. On Reddit?

That's the thing with talking to ******* strangers. The voices in thier head are worth more to them than the potential of you. Good luck.

But yes, deep fakes will require pulling back the degree of "progress" we use technology for to determine truth, or we will just have to give up on truth. The internet has never actually been a particularly good place for it.

agreed on all points, though I wouldn't say "strangers" in general, but the problems lies rather with anonymous internet strangers. I have had some of the best conversations in my entire life with strangers. but always in real life, never on the web.

Sorry dawg, but I don't buy it. These quotes read as more branding to distinguish the "scientific" socialists from the "utopians". The point of abolishing class divisions and class rule was to create the society where "the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all." That's about as egalitarian as you can get and there is no doubt that Marx's underlying philosophy incorporated the idea of human equality, the equal dignity and worth of all persons. The scientific socialists' argument was that they understood, according to their own ideas, that moralizing alone wouldn't make a moral society.

You seem to be reasoning as though egalitarianism means a single-minded obsession with equality of outcome alone but I don't think that definition makes much sense.

I wasn't really trying to convince you, you're probably deeper into Marxism than I am. it also seems we have pretty different understandings of egalitarianism that we're trying to retrospectively apply to historical people. to me, there are two main tenets to egalitarianism:

1) people are fundamentally equal 2) people should be treated equally

When you say that "humans are equal", what you really mean is "humans are equals", which is a radically different statement, it's a statement about human worth. no human being is worth more than another. this, I think, is indeed a central idea in Marxism.

there is no doubt that Marx's underlying philosophy incorporated the idea of human equality, the equal dignity and worth of all persons. Yeah, fully agreed. Again though we are talking about human worth and human dignity here.

Humans definitely aren't equal in their capabilities (according to Marxists, and according to me) and that is I think where Marxism and Egalitarianism bite each other. So it seems our disagreement lies with our definition of "egalitarian" more than it does with our understanding of marxism: You think egalitarianism is fundamentally about human worth and dignity, I agree, but always associated with it a dimension of human capability.

Dumb example: The anti-egalitarian would say that sub-saharan Africans have a low IQ average, so they are less intelligent than other peoples. The egalitarian would say that all people around the world are equal in capability, they're just better at different instaces: emotional intelligence, musical intelligence, creativity etc.
 
Yar, "real life" has a degree of physical accountability. Though people do fatigue at dealing with strangers in a way they don't with people they know, even if they don't particularly like them oodles and boodles.

It's not even just the era of photographic proof that's going to come to an end. Think of phone calls, generally speaking, if your home phone rang in the 1980s, you picked it up blind and it was likely going to be somebody you wanted to talk with, even briefly. Now there is mostly noise on the line(and a frigtening amout of it is actually filtered). As mechanical writing improves, how well do we think things like Wiki-Keeper-of-All-Human-Knowledge are going to fare? Might have to go back to something so unbelievably fuddy-duddy as paid/sourced journals, which is what we used to have to screw with doing in order to not be quoting 2nd hand things like magazines or just total flat BS.
 
at this point I'm all for "accelerating", because clearly radical change is the only way we'll get out of this mess. I also fully agree with you w/r/t phone calls, it extends to everything: the entire internet, television, journalism, science, even god damn handwriting. nothing short of direct face-to-face sense based encounter will be believable anymore. and we thought we had it bad with Trump and fake news, that's just the freakin avant-garde. cavalry about to roll in..

Yar, "real life" has a degree of physical accountability. Though people do fatigue at dealing with strangers in a way they don't with people they know,

yeah, especially if the situation isn't voluntary. like when you're forced to deal with people cuz it's your job. man, people hate that :lol: I think the impossibility of retreat is one thing that can make these situations awkward or tense.
 
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. This fundamental idea already betrays one aspect of egalitarianism: The idea that all people are equal. Of course this tenet of egalitarianism was always stupid, and the important thought behind egalitarianism is not the idea that all people are equal, but that all people deserve equal rights and opportunities.

Equal rights and equal opportunities

Fast rewind to the early 70ies NL.... to education

* The Liberals were in favor of equal rights... well... hm.... sounds good... what does that really mean ???
Their late 19th century push for better schools, to get more well educated people, for better higher value economy (the competition between the nation-states), had slowly run into stagnation over the decades when it functioned "good enough" to filter out the talented "brains" at young age from the lower and rural classes.
* The centre Christian Democrats were pushing for equal opportunities for the education of everybody, in terms of availability of nearby decent schools (also rural, their voter base), in terms of state funding (also (rural) students needing to pay a room in an university city).
* The Left was pushing for equal job opportunities from education for everybody and caused in the period 1963-1968 a structural education revolution for secondary schools for that objective, all changes wrapped up and consolidated in the so called Mammoth Law of 1975. It was considered a major victory by the Left at that time.
(The slogan of the government at that time was: "Spreading of Knowledge, Power and Income")

To get to a more equal "outcome" of the education five basic changes were made for secondary schools:
* the first year, the bridge-year, was for all secondary schools the same with the objective that pupils from lesser quality primary schools, social background, or slower personal development, had 1 year more before the choice was made to go to the "right" difficulty level of the secondary school.
* the possibility to flow smootly from lower level to higher level secondary schools was made easier in terms of procedure and funding. (the same objectives as the first point).
* the number of school subjects teached was decreased to focus efforts on essential subjects needed for jobs in society in economical terms. A separate subject societal cultural knowledge (not final examen) was added. It was allowed to add school subjects that were partially obligatory, partially non-obligatory.
* from the 4th and 5th class onward of the highest level (Atheneum or Gymnasium had 6 years) you had to specialise already towards that reduced amount of examen subjects.
* the level for the nationwide final examen was lowered, to get the certificate hurdle lower, although much of this was compensated by more hours per subject at the expense of the amount of subjects. This should secure more broad access to higher educations and from there a broader higher level economy and jobs and access for everybody.
(underlying justifying consideration was that especially pupils from weaker backgrounds developed slower, and would catch up mostly anyway during subsequent educations or "on the job"... and "talents would find their way anyway").

I "enjoyed" both systems, or better worded the hybrid transition, and my fellow pupils were as positive as I was.
Older people predicting doom were wrong.

Looking back at it all... it did help... but not enough to overcome all the other factors downstream of your education.
I think that adding generously teachers for structured helping-coaching learning to learn after your normal lessons on a 1:1 base (instead of doing that "homework" at home somehow or not, with a friend or not) would have a big impact to help the slow-starters, the pupils from less favorable backgrounds, or pupils needing more structure than average.

"equal outcome" is not the result you get, but the path to go.
Proving that it is utopian easy... not trying to go that way lazy.
And just as with a personal relation... you need to work all the time on it.... with dignity and acknowledged worth for everybody involved.
 
The distinction between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome relies on a static view of society that ignores the fact that society must reproduce itself to continue to exist, and today's outcomes become tomorrow's opportunities...
 
The distinction between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome relies on a static view of society that ignores the fact that society must reproduce itself to continue to exist, and today's outcomes become tomorrow's opportunities...

agree
You have to adjust the definition of equal outcome all the time... part of that working all the time on it.

What I would also add in schooling systems is feedback from people having jobs towards pupils of typically 15-16 years old when choices are being made...
and including asessments aimed at personal character profiles <-> job character profiles.
A truck driver has another mindset (nobody looking over his shoulders) than a teamplayer orientated office worker, or a puzzle solving technical maintenance person.

I did during my job a lot of "lectures" at technical high schools (just some technical 1 hour powerpoint and then 2 hours questions).
It delivered me a steady stream of trainees 1 year before they became engineer.
It delivered those pupils a kind of taste, flavor how it ticks when you get a job. A teacher, even if he had practical years in his CV, is still not the person to switch minds there.
A big gap there between job expectations and what it finally boils down to.
 
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