What is the worst Unique Building?

[vicawoo]

I don't understand, why Stele gets so many votes.
Let me encourage you to play a game with ZY and build Stonehenge or a stele in every city.
It is flat out - amazing. You get so much land.

I like it.

Or you could build 33% more cities with the hammers you save from building the steles. In the case of stonehenge, try at least 50% more.

 

[King Flevance]

I don't understand how the Stele hasn't completely dominated this poll.

 

[Clam Spammer]

Archery units, not just archers.
Crossbowmen + Gallic Warrior is a pretty hardy combo.
Longbowmen (especially on a hill city) are powerful defenders.
Guerilla III Celts pouring out of the hills into enemy territory ... priceless.
Unfortunately, I find them useful for a very limited amount of time (on deity).
I can get 2..3 cities before I need to take the slow road around the hills with cats.
Certainly, a better player can do more with them.

If the right situation arises, then yes, you can get some great results out of Dun and archers. However, that is a huge if:

- Powerful defenders might be nice to look at and admire, but unless the AI actually attacks them then they're not much use. Sure, you won't lose the city, but you won't be working improved tiles for a while
- Hills are randomly distributed, so you can't consistently make use of them. More than likely you're going to have to stop on a flat tile on the way to an enemy city, and then you're vulnerable to attack.
- All archery units require a significant (for their era) detour from economic techs, and none has a great base strength for their time so they're not greatly versatile units. Unless you're playing as China (or perhaps against Holy Rome) then crossbows aren't likely to be a top priority. The "standard" economic tech path will open up Maces at the same time.
- Medieval era isn't the greatest time for warring at any rate, with those castles springing up everywhere.


All that said, the Dun isn't the worst UB, and for one reason only - access to Guerilla III on early gunpowder. (And if I'd thought about it earlier, I'd have voted for something else )

 

[ICNP]

The Mall of America. It's only useful in the Late Game when your running Universal Suffrage. Although if I was going to pick out a building that isn't worthwhile in almost any scenario, I'd probably say the Obelisk or Stele.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't understand how the Stele hasn't completely dominated this poll.

Obviously because other uniques are even more useless.

Stele is a significant boost to religious-based culture wins, and it's kind of silly for people to discount that only because it "isn't their style". ANYTHING is useless if you consistently opt not to use it!

In a culture game stele is usually worth 25-50 culture/turn in the 3 legendary cities during the final push and a significant amount before that. Even a very modest 1500 culture/legendary city makes it as strong as having a great artist gifted over...but often its actual culture output across the game is double that since they are constructed early.

When you have woofers like "factory with engineer slots that comes too late to make a serious push for mining inc unless you're lucky" or "+1 commerce/ocean tile, which leaves ocean tiles as generally junk anyway except in moai", and realize both of these come 100's of turns later than the stele, it's hard to vote the stele.

It's not that stele isn't bad, it's that there are worse ones. Stele is occasionally nice for controlling tiles and CONSISTENTLY useful when pursuing culture...which means it sees some use in games, and more frequently than the garbage I listed.

 

[Iranon]

I voted for the Stele myself, but I don't see why it should dominate this poll.

The Obelisk is likely to be completely useless if you don't go straight for the Apostolic Palace in the hope of a cheese win. Most military UBs are of sharply limited use and longevity... the Dun as the curent un-favourite actually looks better than most others at a full promotion from Archers to Grenadiers. Many others are also markedly weak and few of the late ones are worth waiting for... the argument that it's better to have a very modest benefit early on isn't easy to dismiss out of hand.

 

[bestbrian]

Observation: So far, all the usual suspects are well-represented. I'm surprised by the votes for the Mint, Citadel, and Ger; really? I'd like to read the reasoning behind those choices.

Also, several votes for the Trading Post? That's seems odd to me.

 

[Higher Game]

The feitoria gives +1 commerce in water tiles, not just ocean. It's underrated because production is usually hard to come by on little islands. The key is settling ones with 2-3 food resources, and slavery. You can whip infrastructure and it will grow to effectively use the feitoria.

It's not great, but it has good synergy with the Portuguese UU, so it's not a "worst ever" contender.

And the citadel, seriously? Cranking out CR 3 trebs doesn't do it for some guys out there?

 

[need my speed]

I've voted for the Obelisk. Duns are walls, thus useless, and provide Guerilla I, which Gallic Warriors already have. But, seeing as I've modified the game so that no building or unit becomes obsolete, and Castles are usefull for their extra trade route, and Walls (or Duns) are a requirement for Castles. With Zara Yaqob you have a good chance at a culture win, for he is Creative, and the Stele can easily add 50 culture per turn, which of course is great. Research Institutes come way too late, but can still help out if you are neck to neck in a space race win. The American building (Mall or Supermarket, I always switch those 2) are more usefull than Obelisks in my opinion, which only adds a priest slot (or 2?)...Which of course is very usefull in low pop cities...And seeing as Obelisks go obsolete with Calendar, cities won't be large enough to make use of those priests. Perhaps in my modified game they might be usefull, but well, I find them worthless.

 

[Ghpstage]

And seeing as Obelisks go obsolete with Calendar, cities won't be large enough to make use of those priests.

In BTS at least, Monuments don't obsolete till Astronomy, and with the AP from a theology bulb those priests can be turned into a relatively easy win, even on deity . While AP wins aren't too popular due to their cheesy and often boring nature, I don't think I could ever bring myself to vote for a building that can often win the game all by itself as the worst UB!

 

[need my speed]

Oh really? I feel so stupid now, I always thought that, since Stonehenge obsoletes with Calendar, Monuents do to...

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

Wow, hard to believe anyone actually voted for Mint and Citadel. I guess people don't like having too much money or bulldozer medieval siege units.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The feitoria gives +1 commerce in water tiles, not just ocean. It's underrated because production is usually hard to come by on little islands. The key is settling ones with 2-3 food resources, and slavery. You can whip infrastructure and it will grow to effectively use the feitoria.

It's not great, but it has good synergy with the Portuguese UU, so it's not a "worst ever" contender.

And the citadel, seriously? Cranking out CR 3 trebs doesn't do it for some guys out there?

2F 3C is an awful tile in the economics/corp time period of the game. Better tiles:

-mines
-windmills
-riverside cottages of any kind, villages or better
-workshops
-watermills
-lumbermills
-environmentalism forest preserves
-riverside farms or any bio farm
-If you have the food resources, running a rep specialist owns the out of working feitoria water tiles also.

Colossus is better and viable early game because 1) the opportunity cost is lower (there are fewer tiles that dominate the coast tiles) and 2) it's actually cheaper with copper than building multiple feitorias by a wide margin, and you get it in the highest hammer city (or close) rather than trying to work it into a junk filler.

So here we have a building that has its primary bonus as something that adds to the tiles you want to work least, and yet they remain the tiles you want to work least. To add insult to injury, you need a harbor first, but it would generally be an awful play to build the thing before granary and lighthouse at a minimum as well. All of this considered, and THEN you realize that for nearly half the game, you don't have it!

And you think that ISN'T a candidate for "worst UB"???

Wow, hard to believe anyone actually voted for Mint and Citadel. I guess people don't like having too much money or bulldozer medieval siege units.

Technically, you can go as far as rifles + artillery using spain's UB. Definitely not to be underestimated.

Oh really? I feel so stupid now, I always thought that, since Stonehenge obsoletes with Calendar, Monuents do to...

Both obsoleted at calendar before BTS. In BTS, both don't obsolete until astronomy.

 

[twansalem]

For one thing, almost all of the UBs in the game can be useful in some situation. A lot of people dislike late game UBs such as the mall or the research institute, but if you're playing a space race game, both of those can buildings can help you get your ship launched sooner. Obviously the research institute helps you build spaceship parts faster, but the mall has it's space race advantages as well, as it gives you a bit more cash, meaning that you might be able to crank up your science rate 10%. If I'm playing as an American leader, I'm probably headed for a space race victory anyway. Admittedly, for me, the research institute is a little less useful as I'm less likely to go the science route when playing as Russia.

Other people have mentioned the salon, but once again, it is a situational thing. When I play as France, I almost exclusively use Louis, and whether I end up winning by culture in the end, that's usually my goal in the beginning, so an extra artist never hurts.

As for the UB I voted as the worst, I voted for the shale plant, as I rarely build coal plants anyway, as I'm usually hurting in the health department at this point in the game. The extra unhealthiness just isn't worth it to me, as I'd rather most of my cities be a little bigger and be able to work an extra tile or have an extra specialist than have the production bonus from power. But of course, this is situational as well.

 

[Draco Spirit]

2F 3C is an awful tile in the economics/corp time period of the game. Better tiles:

-mines
-windmills
-riverside cottages of any kind, villages or better
-workshops
-watermills
-lumbermills
-environmentalism forest preserves
-riverside farms or any bio farm
-If you have the food resources, running a rep specialist owns the out of working feitoria water tiles also.

Colossus is better and viable early game because 1) the opportunity cost is lower (there are fewer tiles that dominate the coast tiles) and 2) it's actually cheaper with copper than building multiple feitorias by a wide margin, and you get it in the highest hammer city (or close) rather than trying to work it into a junk filler.

So here we have a building that has its primary bonus as something that adds to the tiles you want to work least, and yet they remain the tiles you want to work least. To add insult to injury, you need a harbor first, but it would generally be an awful play to build the thing before granary and lighthouse at a minimum as well. All of this considered, and THEN you realize that for nearly half the game, you don't have it!

And you think that ISN'T a candidate for "worst UB"???



Technically, you can go as far as rifles + artillery using spain's UB. Definitely not to be underestimated.



Both obsoleted at calendar before BTS. In BTS, both don't obsolete until astronomy.

*shrugs* You'll still end up with a fair few cities working water tiles.

 

[Iranon]

As for the UB I voted as the worst, I voted for the shale plant, as I rarely build coal plants anyway, as I'm usually hurting in the health department at this point in the game. The extra unhealthiness just isn't worth it to me, as I'd rather most of my cities be a little bigger and be able to work an extra tile or have an extra specialist than have the production bonus from power. But of course, this is situational as well.

If you are hurting in the health department, I assume you build factories? If so, have you considered that Shale Plants get you relatively clean power since they allow you to windmill over coal or trade it away?
2 for +60% seems a lot more attractive than 4-6 for +50%.

 

[Higher Game]

2F 3C is an awful tile in the economics/corp time period of the game. Better tiles:

-mines
-windmills
-riverside cottages of any kind, villages or better
-workshops
-watermills
-lumbermills
-environmentalism forest preserves
-riverside farms or any bio farm
-If you have the food resources, running a rep specialist owns the out of working feitoria water tiles also.

Land > water, but that's the ideal, not the reality. Settling fishing islands of questionable economic value is sometimes the path of least resistance.

Colossus is better and viable early game because 1) the opportunity cost is lower (there are fewer tiles that dominate the coast tiles) and 2) it's actually cheaper with copper than building multiple feitorias by a wide margin, and you get it in the highest hammer city (or close) rather than trying to work it into a junk filler.

It's also a world wonder that financial civilizations can build. It's on another level, and probably should be toned down depending on map settings.

So here we have a building that has its primary bonus as something that adds to the tiles you want to work least, and yet they remain the tiles you want to work least. To add insult to injury, you need a harbor first, but it would generally be an awful play to build the thing before granary and lighthouse at a minimum as well. All of this considered, and THEN you realize that for nearly half the game, you don't have it!

And you think that ISN'T a candidate for "worst UB"???

It's expensive for what it does, but pure commerce demands a premium because it's more flexible than pure research. There are times when a seowon or a stock exchange aren't worth it. The feitoria comes in handy more consistently; no plan survives contact with the enemy.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Land > water, but that's the ideal, not the reality. Settling fishing islands of questionable economic value is sometimes the path of least resistance.

And yet, comically enough, rep specialists are still superior to the non-seafood, so your UB benefit is roughly 1-3 commerce in such a city. That's surely worth waiting >150 turns rather than getting something else sooner! Or not. Never mind that least resistance is not always best.

It's also a world wonder that financial civilizations can build. It's on another level, and probably should be toned down depending on map settings.

Every wonder has variable mileage. Gwall is right around the "trash" level on standard maps for a lot of starts. On huge, it is easily the most hammer-efficient way of dealing with barbarians. GLH, Paya, even Pyramids also have heavily variable mileage depending on your situation.

It's expensive for what it does, but pure commerce demands a premium because it's more flexible than pure research. There are times when a seowon or a stock exchange aren't worth it. The feitoria comes in handy more consistently; no plan survives contact with the enemy.

Don't quote something that doesn't apply here and attempt to use it to pass off a failing argument. The seowon and stock exchange are both FAR more consistently useful than the feitoria to any competent player - they are stronger bonuses and can easily take advantage of city specialization. They also are viable in a larger city # on top of being stronger basic bonuses. Not only that, the are both available sooner.

A very trashy benefit on what is generally your most marginal tiles available comes in handy more than extra raw multipliers in specialized cities that are built sooner? Are you *really* trying to make that argument? Really?

Never mind that the ROI on a feitoria has to be sufficient to make it a plausible build, and that almost all of that ROI comes from the basic effect of the building, not the UB benefit. It's a pretty sound joke to claim the feitoria is consistently useful to begin with, but comparing it to 10% extra yield in one's best cities sooner makes it hard to even take anything you're saying seriously.

*shrugs* You'll still end up with a fair few cities working water tiles.

Why is this again?

 

[georgjorge]

Because you're playing on Archipelago with high sea level, maybe...



I voted for the Dun, but now I have visions of GuerillaIII Muskets (GuerillaII if drafted) rushing an opponent on a hill-heavy map, as fast as a Knight rush but with high withdrawal chances (50% is huge) and not very effective counters before Rifles! Hell, I could even imagine Longbow rushes in the medieval era if it weren't for Castles and Walls (getting a bonus for attacking on hills should help against defending Longbows). Those ideas seem pretty nice, has anyone ever had success with that?

 

[LegionSteve]

Because you're playing on Archipelago with high sea level, maybe...

My current game is on an archipelago with high sea level, as portugal. I have a feitoria in every city. At one point after we captured the colossus, I was getting 4 commerce from every water tile

That is a very extreme example though, and generally I think it is one of the weakest UB.