What is the worst Unique Building?

[BornInCantaloup]

The Stele is tied for 3rd worst UB in this poll...

I haven't built one many times but it certainly is cool on tight maps :
- Makes a cultural victory so much easier ;
- Zara being creative, there's an incentive to spark close border tensions and to fight for tiles ;
- Zara being creative (again), you can even consider culture flipping rival cities... The Stele makes it easier.
- Ethiopia's UU, the Oromo warrior, is highly draftable. Drafting may make you raise your culture slider, hence benefitting even more from the Stele.


I rolled Zara today and am considering building a few Steles to :
- Culture flip a barb city ;
- Culture flip a city Victoria settled 3 tiles away from a city of mine (my city has marble in its 2nd ring ; 1st ring of Vicky's city... I certainly don't want to lose that tile) ;
- Maybe raise the culture slider while drafting Oromo warriors (not yet... I'm 800 B.C. right now...).

--> Overall, you "can" afford having less units to tech faster and have a war with a more advanced army (you "can" do it, meaning it's not automatically the better choice but the Stele helps if you do it that way).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

25% does not make culture wins "so much easier". Usually the big part of culture wins is getting enough raw culture and coming up with artist GPP to bomb. Shaving a couple turns isn't a big deal from the stele. What the stele does do with consistency, however, is allow one to win tile vs tile when cities are spaced evenly against them. Frequently each side will have similar religion presence in the border city, and something else will push you over the edge and give you the tile. Frequently zara wins this anyway thanks to CRE, but not always.

It's never going to be good, but it's early enough in the game that the times it's actually useful tend to matter. So, for that matter, is the dun.

The dun is underestimated in that it can put up archers longbows with hill defense similar to that of protective civs. A very, very typical ploy on high levels is to stack a hill city next to the AI and wall it. A normal archer with CG I on a hill is 3+3(.5 +.5 + .2 +.25) = 7.35. This is typically good enough to hold off classical attackers...but if it gets hit by an AGG CR I sword it falls to 6.3 against a 6.6 sword -----> loss on average! Worse if the sword chooses to take cover. HAs of any kind also get very near this archer threshold. City defenses can put you over pre-cats, but relying on just 20% is dangerous.

So what if you pump in guerrilla II? If they don't have anti-modifiers on you, you fight at 8.25. Even the AGG sword only takes you down to 7.2. Your odds using the anti-rush archery defense go up substantially. IF you have city defenses, you can actually beat a praetorian heads up! More to the point, you can bait the AI into this garbage then counter (although a lot of people might just use the gallics defensively since with hills + guerrilla I combat I on them they trounce pretty much all of that classical stuff defensively...even axes struggle like hell).

It's not like it takes a lot of hills. Just one near the AI to milk the hell out of it. Nevermind that on the multiplayer side of things, you can pull extremely obnoxious G II archers, GII gallics, or G III (!) longbows to choke/cause problems. GIII longbows are notable because a lot of MP people like settling on hills and they are now a legit threat regardless of that. Just a few of them can force your opponent to overstuff cities or risk getting them burned.

Dun is situational and requires active effort to milk it, especially vs AI, but no way is it worse than things that come so late in the game that they rarely show up before the outcome is decided.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Aye, sorry, English isn't my native language and I phrased poorly.
I should have said the +25% culture from the Stele makes culture win "that much easier" ("that" referring to the +25%, not saying it's a tremendous bonus).

 

[pgi27]

Vikings? Is this a poll for BTS? Must be, as I haven't heard of some of those civs, or even "Unique Buildings".

 

[Fei Kelei]

TMIT, you know that the dun has nothing to do with gallic warriors, right? I mean, they're loosely related in that a Celtic strategy to take advantage of the guerrilla promotions will feature both of them, and maybe that's what you're talking about, but it's kind of misleading to talk about the benefits of the dun without making that clear.

 

[NihilZero]

barbarians can build world wonders.

Is this true?

I would love to see that happen. Why has this never happened in one of my games? I would give anything to see the Barbarian State building the United Nations...or Rock n' Roll.

Also - I'm amazed to see that this thread is still alive. The answer is still the Dun.

 

[plasmacannon]

Funny. It appears we all have different opinions of worst.
My choice: Research Institute (Russia).
The game is usually won by then, so, it provides little help at that point.
My 2nd worst would be the stele, as pointed out by many here.

I have to strongly disagree with many though on the dun.
My friend and I were stunned to see one of our favorite empires on here.
The dun gives a free guerilla 1 promotion to warriors, spearmen, archers, longbowmen, crossbowmen and pikemen built in that city.
Great for defending cities we build on hills, which when playing Celts, I do alot.
This is far more useful than +2 scientists for Russia, or the +25% culture for Ethiopia.
I would even place Rome's Forum as a minor advantage.

Perhaps, it wouldn't be as low as some of you think, if axemen/macemen got the promotion as well. Yes, the UU gets it automatically, but, a Longbowman with City3, and Hills2 is hard to dig out of a city on a hill, without many catapults. If said longboman can build up his Drill promotions as well, even the bombard damage is reduced. As celtic leaders are Charasmatic, this usually doesn't take long.

Again, Research Institute (Russia), and Ethiopian Stele.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Well, I agree that the Dun isn't the worst. However, I disagree that Guerilla promotions are good because they help defend cities. Defending cities is the last thing you want to do in a war. Most people who like the Dun and Guerilla promos advocate more offensive uses of Guerilla, like double movement from G2, withdrawal from G3, choking, GG farming, etc.

 

[Higher Game]

I like to run representation with Peter of Russia as a GP economy, and the research institute ends up giving +24 in each commerce city and +36 in the Oxford city, plus GPP. It's worth maybe an extra tech at the end. I wouldn't say it's great or even average, but it's not the worst.

 

[ace94d]

And now, making a post, as a lowly Prince player...

Prolly gonna get flamed for this, but my choice for worst UB isn't on the list. It'd be the Terrace.

Yes, yes, a Granary is always one of the first builds in a city(Usually 2nd or 3rd build for me). So +2 Culture means border pops and no other cultural buildings required.

But...I'm Huanya Capac. I start with Mysticism and I'm Industrious. Some of the main things I can leverage immedietely is either a religion or a fast Stonehenge, both of which completely kill the point of the Terrace. Usually, a Granary will take 10-15 turns to build anyway, bar whipping(Which I can only do in captured cities, where I'll usually whip out a defender first...). That's all the time a Stonehenge-made Monument needs to pop my border.

My other advantage as Huanya Capac is Aggressive(EDIT: derp was thinking Vanilla, I'm Financial) + Quechua, which means early rush to kill of a neighbor. The problem is that I'm now killing off a neighbor fast and early, which ALSO kills the point of the Terrace because I'm not having a culture war with a dead person! The only thing it does then is get me to full BFC a little faster, but I'm not really sure how useful this is overall.

Honorary mentions to the Shale Plant, the Obelisk and the Stele.

I don't get why the Baray has eight votes? +1 Food is amazing.

 

[Absolute Zero]

But...I'm Huanya Capac. I start with Mysticism and I'm Industrious. Some of the main things I can leverage immedietely is either a religion or a fast Stonehenge, both of which completely kill the point of the Terrace.

On Prince those are both viable; however, on higher difficulties, religion or Stonehenge may not be so easy to get.

Also, you can look at it this way: The Terrace means you don't have to go for religion or Stonehenge, and you can spend those beakers/hammers on other things instead.

The problem is that I'm now killing off a neighbor fast and early, which ALSO kills the point of the Terrace because I'm not having a culture war with a dead person! The only thing it does then is get me to full BFC a little faster, but I'm not really sure how useful this is overall.

The idea is that with the Terrace, you don't need to build monuments or Stonehenge, or found a religion. Basically, it saves you the hammers/research that you would have spent to get culture otherwise.

I don't get why the Baray has eight votes? +1 Food is amazing.

How is it amazing? It's just +1 food...and especially by the time that Barays are being built, it's not much of a boost. Definitely not one of the worst UBs though.

 

[Kullervo]

Ace, you have a good point, but the problem is that on the higher difficulties it's rare to get Stonehenge. You could do it, but then your opponents will have founded 5 more cities, and there will be a stack of axes, swords, and chariots headed your way. It's better to build up your empire and conquer the wonders you REALLY want on the highest levels.

EDIT: Okay, redundant post is a little redundant. Just noticed Zero's first few lines.

 

[ace94d]

Yeah, at higher levels the Terrace would be good. Like I said I'm just a kinda noob-ish Prince player.

Prolly Shale Plant would be my worst if we go to higher levels.

 

[Higher Game]

The baray helps cities grow (and whip) before you have civil service irrigation to bring farms to some areas. It's not huge, but it's early and keeps its value for the whole game.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, I agree that the Dun isn't the worst. However, I disagree that Guerilla promotions are good because they help defend cities. Defending cities is the last thing you want to do in a war. Most people who like the Dun and Guerilla promos advocate more offensive uses of Guerilla, like double movement from G2, withdrawal from G3, choking, GG farming, etc.

Defending cities in single player can be very strong if you are specifically baiting the AI there.

In MP the offensive applications are definitely more important.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

And now, making a post, as a lowly Prince player...

Prolly gonna get flamed for this, but my choice for worst UB isn't on the list. It'd be the Terrace.

Yes, yes, a Granary is always one of the first builds in a city(Usually 2nd or 3rd build for me). So +2 Culture means border pops and no other cultural buildings required.

But...I'm Huanya Capac. I start with Mysticism and I'm Industrious. Some of the main things I can leverage immedietely is either a religion or a fast Stonehenge, both of which completely kill the point of the Terrace. Usually, a Granary will take 10-15 turns to build anyway, bar whipping(Which I can only do in captured cities, where I'll usually whip out a defender first...). That's all the time a Stonehenge-made Monument needs to pop my border.

My other advantage as Huanya Capac is Aggressive(EDIT: derp was thinking Vanilla, I'm Financial) + Quechua, which means early rush to kill of a neighbor. The problem is that I'm now killing off a neighbor fast and early, which ALSO kills the point of the Terrace because I'm not having a culture war with a dead person! The only thing it does then is get me to full BFC a little faster, but I'm not really sure how useful this is overall.

Honorary mentions to the Shale Plant, the Obelisk and the Stele.

I don't get why the Baray has eight votes? +1 Food is amazing.

Terrace does not belong on the list. The list would be a laughingstock if it were to include one of the better UBs in the game.

- Early religion isn't a good call most of the time, because it puts you behind on working your best tiles and is of only marginal use unless you commit even more resources into getting a great prophet, and THEN it's only worthwhile if you get a lot of spread w/o sinking hammers into missionaries. That's a lot of ifs for something that MIGHT (but probably will not) come out ahead of researching a technology to improve special tiles and building a worker.

- Granary is building #1 in cities that don't need a border pop to access good specials. The latest it ever should be built is #2, barring strange cases like "frozen tundra city with no food to claim those 3 beavers and a silver".

- Granaries can be captured. The terrace is *not* an exception. Captured enemy cities that do not have the granary destroyed will generate +2 culture the instant they come out of revolt regardless of anything else.

- If you're going to quecha cheese, you care less about SH than other options. Since you have access to an excellent culture building already, maybe you should consider building something else to leverage IND - you have other options! Gwall, Pyramids, Oracle or saving those hammers for later wonders like great library/etc are viable options, and other than gwall/oracle most of those are viable builds even after a q rush.

Basically, the gist of your argument is "terrace sucks because it does not fit my playstyle, which assumes actions that are frequently poor decisions. But, it's the UB's fault!"

 

[Absolute Zero]

The baray helps cities grow (and whip) before you have civil service irrigation to bring farms to some areas. It's not huge, but it's early and keeps its value for the whole game.

This is the part I'm a little unsure about. How much does that +1 food really help? Of course in the early game, 1 extra food is pretty big. But by the time Barays come around, cities are around 4-6 pop (at least the ones that you'll actually be building Barays in - they wouldn't be on my list of first builds in new cities). I think that would only shave off 2-3 turns, even on Marathon, which I almost always play.

Maybe I'll set up a test and figure out the exact numbers later.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

On Monarch+ think how many Quechuas you can build for the price of Stonehenge.

EDIT: Stonehenge is something you build as Capac when you have too many Quechuas and cities and the maintenance is staring to hurt you.

 

[kochman]

On Monarch+ think how many Quechuas you can build for the price of Stonehenge.

EDIT: Stonehenge is something you build as Capac when you have too many Quechuas and cities and the maintenance is staring to hurt you.

8 quechas without stone...
4 quechas with stone.
Stonehedge is pretty cheap.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

8 quechas without stone...
4 quechas with stone.
Stonehedge is pretty cheap.

Looks to me like SH costs 1 AI capitol. Not worth it . Maybe after on levels where after is possible.