What Is Your Favorite Reason For Why The HRE Is A Bad Idea

[dragodon64]

So in other words, because you don't even understand History you learnt when you were 12 you now wish to 'fix' one of the most significant Empires in European history. What you are saying is to just replace it. IT IS NOT JUST WHAT IS MODERN GERMANY! Now, I'm not sure, maybe I've been smoking a bit too much crack over the last few days but, Hapsburg Austria formed from Hapsburg Holy Roman Empire. The Hapsburgs are what made the Holy Roman Empire not Holy. Now, incredibly generic name [with a number at the end], do this little inteligence test. Get an icepick and stab in rapidly into your left leg, have a camera running while doing so and then post it on YouTube. Now your inteligence is inversly proportianol to the number of people who think it was funny. I will post a proper equasion to figure this out soon.

I'm not talking about the political state of modern Germany, I'm talking about the people and the culture. If they included a modern Greece civilisation would you complain. True, its a slightly different culture but there are more important civilisations out there than 2 different versions of the same one.

P.S. For God's sake, cool down, i will not take responsibility if you get a heart attack!

 

[Lone Wolf]

The Germany of the game is actually Prussia, which was seperate from the Holy Roman Empire. Frederick the Great anyone.

Maybe you should learn your history? The core of Prussia (Bradenburg) was in the HRE, althrough some of its Polish holdings were not.

Hapsburg Austria formed from Hapsburg Holy Roman Empire.

Again, Austria was in the HRE, many Austrian holdings were not. And the majority of the HRE territories (Saxony, Mecklenburg etc.) were never controlled by Austria. What are you talking about?

 

[gettingfat]

As a pharmaceutical scientist, everytime I see the word HRE I can't stop myself from thinking of Hormonal Replacement/Estrogen therapy

I know this is a pretty weak one

 

[ParkCungHee]

13) Its incredibly insulting to German Culture

 

[Pangur Bán]

The Germany of the game is actually Prussia, which was seperate from the Holy Roman Empire. Frederick the Great anyone. If people want to keep mixing up Germanic peoples and Germany, they might as well put their hand in lava.

I wouldn't be too bothered if the rest followed by the way.

The Germany of the game is Germany. Prussian leaders have been selected by firaxis, but the name and city-list is Germany as a whole.

Prussia wasn't actually separate from the HRE in practice. The elector of Brandenburg wanted the title of king, but couldn't be "King of Brandenburg" because Brandenburg (most of his best territory, where Berlin is) was in Germany; but some of his outlying territory, Prussia (an old semi-dependency of Poland), was outside of the Kingdom of Germany, and so the Emperor allowed him this title. So, yeah, in title, Prussia wasn't in the Empire, but Frederick was a vassal of the King of Germany/Holy Roman Emperor for most of his lands.

Not it anyway... The USSR and Russia is like Britain , the UK and England. There is a huge amount of difference here. The Holy Roman Empire never became Germany, Prussia came about from the East and then proceeded to become modern Germany. The Holy Roman Empire dissolved and in 1870 Germany as it is now was united by the Franco-Prussian war. On the other hand the USSR came about directly from Russia. Now do not say that it became the USSR after the communist take over. The name Union of Soviet Socialist Republics came about as a compromise much like Austria-Hungary so they could keep control of places like the Ukraine and Belorus. They changed them from territories of Russia into Soviet Socialist Republics. It was a direct change unlike that of Germany and the Holy Roman Empire. That and the Holy Roman Empire was Germanic not German... [said once more for your enjoyment] ...Germanic is not just Germany, remember that. Stop making stupid comparisons people... really!

Modern Germany essentially derives from the HRE in a line of continuous development. The HRE, like it or not, was commonly called "Germany" or "the Empire". After the reunification of most of the Empire in 1871, much of the old HRE terminology was revived (e.g. "Kaiser", "Reich", etc), and it was cast very much in the light of a resurrection of the 1st Reich, not as (like English-speaking schoolchildren are taught) a new creation; you will notice that the old line of German kings, now using the title "Emperor of Austria", were presidents of the German Confederation and were always thought of as the leading candidates to resurrect the old state. You remember what the "reunited Germany" called itself? German Empire (Deutsches [Kaiser]reich)! With that the HRE is just smacking you in the face!

Because of Napoleon, the last King of Germany Francis II abdicated in 1806 and dissolved the Reich, but it was kind of revived with the German Confederation (which, like the HRE of the German Nation, included Bohemia - though in pure technical terms, Bohemia was never really part of the Empire as Germany, few people drew that distinction by then) after the defeat of Napoleon. Brandenburg/Prussia was very successful during the Napoleonic Wars and acquired more territory in the north of Germany-proper, defeated Austria, then France, and reunited most of Germany outside of the Austrian Empire (i.e. mainly Austria and Bohemia) ... which was, unlike the HRE, a proper multi-national empire.

As to "Germanic", no-one knew of any such word back then. It's a neologism, and was never used by anyone until the 18th century growth in linguistic origin mythology/history. You were either German, or you weren't. So, I'd advise you not to overplay that one. It was the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation after all, not the historically impossible "Holy Roman Empire of the Germanic Nation".

Also, some people are trying to make out that the HRE was some kind of multi-national state; well, it was and it wasn't. The King of Germany first obtained the title "Emperor" while only King of Germany. He became later King of Italy/Pavia and King of Burgundy/Arles; Bohemia was acquired by the Hapsburgs and came into the Empire, but the Kingdom remained the Kingdom of Germany with an imperial gloss. The language was always German, and indeed the formal style of the Empire became "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation". That is about as multi-national as the Kingdom of the King of England (which came to include Cornwall, Wales and Ireland). As the HRE meant Germanization in places like Bohemia, just as anglicization proceeded in Wales, Cornwall and Ireland, overplaying some "multinational" elements would be critically misleading.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Ah, so that's the reason why the ruler of Brandenburg became a Prussian King... I wondered why. When I say "Prussia" I usually mean Prussia and Brandenburg both.

 

[sneaky]

They are not roman you idiot. They are Germanic... For idiots, there is a differece between Germanic and German. German is the name the English gave to the people of Deutschland. The titile Holy Roman Empire was because it was Catholic, now guess where catholosism was and is based. Also about Byzantia, leave it alone. I am sick of people saying it is just the East Roman Empire. It is a different entity all together. By your strange logic England is really just Normandy, or lets extend that to France while we're being idiots. Now what adds insult to indury is some people saying that they are also a middle age greece. Yes, there where alot of Greeks, but they weren't just a middle age helenic empire.

You are aware that I was sarcastic right?
Of course i know there or not two or three Romans, it's just that people like to use that argue against the HRE. Which is the point of this thread, to sarcastically name all the dumb reason people have used against the HRE inclusion.

 

[Falk]

@calgacus
Thank you! Awesome post!
I wonder where all these misconceptions people here have about the HREotGN (sic!) come from. It's really absurd when some posters dislike the addition of the HREotGN because they think it was a multi-national state, kind of a loose federation (which it wasnt), and at the same time say that Austria(-Hungary) is a better choice as a new civ. It's hilarious.

 

[Lone Wolf]

To be fair, the HRE was not called the HREotGN in the beginning.

 

[Falk]

To be fair, the HRE was not called the HREotGN in the beginning

Yes, you're right. But the "otGN" was added for a reason. It's not that the HRE wasnt German before it was actually called HREotGN.

 

[Titus001]

They are not roman you idiot. They are Germanic... For idiots, there is a differece between Germanic and German. German is the name the English gave to the people of Deutschland. The titile Holy Roman Empire was because it was Catholic, now guess where catholosism was and is based. Also about Byzantia, leave it alone. I am sick of people saying it is just the East Roman Empire. It is a different entity all together. By your strange logic England is really just Normandy, or lets extend that to France while we're being idiots. Now what adds insult to indury is some people saying that they are also a middle age greece. Yes, there where alot of Greeks, but they weren't just a middle age helenic empire.



The Germany of the game is actually Prussia, which was seperate from the Holy Roman Empire. Frederick the Great anyone. If people want to keep mixing up Germanic peoples and Germany, they might as well put their hand in lava.

I wouldn't be too bothered if the rest followed by the way.

You need to chill out and take a history pill. I agree that the "Holy Roman Empire" should be in the expansion. I don't agree with the name Holy Roman Empire at all because I understand the history about the germancic empire. "Holy Roman Empire" as a name was just a political and religious move, it was not the roman empire. Infact Holy Roman empire's ancestors are the ones that brought down the Roman empire in the west a few centuries earlier. So I agree with you 100% on that subject.

Now we dont need to call people idiots.....

About what you said about the "Byzantines"

I hope you don't believe in the outdated notion that the Roman empire fell at 476AD. I hate to inform you, but the Roman empire fell at 1453AD to the ottoman turks. But lets go back to 476AD when the western side of the roman empire was invaded by germanic invaders and fell to the invaders. Do you think since the western side of the roman empire was destroyed that the remaining lands of the Roman empire also vanished like the western side into thin air? Or do you believe since the western side of the roman empire fell at 476 AD that magically a new nation or empire came to be? Like the so called byzantines?

Here are some maps to inform people who are confused on this subject
Roman empire at 200AD, notice its a pinkish color http://www.roman-emperors.org/big200.htm

Roman Empire at 500AD Notice that the remains of the roman empire after the fall of the west are also a pinkish color. http://www.roman-emperors.org/big500.htm

Roman Empire at 1100 AD again notice it's a pinkish color exactly like the 200AD map. http://www.roman-emperors.org/big1100.htm

Again the Byzantine empire never existed, the Byzantines are infact a made up name. To the people that lived during it's reign considered themselves the Roman empire. Why should they not? Why should history change the name from Roman empire to the Byzantine empire when the greek in the east considered himself the Roman empire and more importantly considered himself Roman above all else.

Click return on the bottom left and see the history of europe from 1AD to 1500AD. More importantly see the history of the Roman empire from 1AD to 1453AD.

Source and link about the so called Byzantines. They were the Roman empire. Since the Greek in the east and other peoples that lived in the region considered themselves the roman empire and roman it is good enough for me. Since Justinian the great (oddly enough leader of the "Byzantines") wanted to retake Italy by invasion he must of thought of himself as Roman and the leader of the Roman empire. Because he and his empire were the Roman Empire, not the so called Byzantine empire. He wanted back what was his from germanic peoples.

http://www.romanity.org/htm/fox.01.en.what_if_anything_is_a_byzantine.01.htm


"Holy roman empire" at 1100AD or Germanic empire whatever you want to call is represented by orange, Roman empire is the pinkish color.
http://www.roman-emperors.org/big1100.htm

 

[Menzies]

I have been asleep for a while and cannot be bothered to write much so this is how it will go down. The Title of Holy Roman Empire in its purist was given by the pope, once the Empire became establish the idea of elected rules became nearly extinced and then the Hapsburg Family's line became a line of Holy Roman Emperors. The point is that Prussia broke away before, PRUSSIA reunited the Reich against France. Now, not all of the German Nation returned to the Reich, nor did their Monarchy remain. The Hapsburgs still had an Empire following the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire. This would become Austria, Prussia would become Germany. It is idiotic to just say they gave the Germany in the game Prussian Leaders. Until after the second world war Prussia was dominant in Germany. Bismark, one of the most famous German leaders in History, and he was highly Prussian [not that I should need to explain]. People spend too much time here thinking of specific time periods and more importantly are too general. It didn't go Holy Roman Empire -> Germany. It went Holy Roman Empire -> Prussia -> Germany and Holy Roman Empire to -> Many other Nations, alot of which Italian...

Oh, and new post that just Appeared...

What you are saying makes no sense. Do you also think that if all the land between Europe and the Urals was taken and destroyed that it would still be Russia. But more to the point that you can't call the Byzantian Empire just Rome, because it wasn't, there was alot of change after the fall of the West, and the culture of the Empire changed, the populous, the architecture and most importantly they had a hight well after the fall of the old empire. It's not like if the Romans all just picked up and went east, the vandals beat the the living 'Native American Civ' out of them.

 

[Lone Wolf]

The point is that Prussia broke away before

Brandenburg was in the HRE. "The Kingdom of Prussia" which most people (including you) talk about is Prussia + Brandenburg. BTW, Berlin is in Brandenburg, so Brandenburg is the best land of Prussia. In fact, HRE did encompass all of the modern Germany, since Germany does not hold the "original" Prussia now.

The Hapsburgs still had an Empire following the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire. This would become Austria

A major part of the Austrian Empire territories was not in the HRE.

PRUSSIA reunited the Reich against France.

To be correct, Brandenburg (HRE territory) did take hold of Prussia, then renamed itself "Prussia" under Frederick the Great.

 

[Menzies]

I know, thats a good way of looking at it. But things did change. Still nice point that Prussia now is sort of Russian (damn dividing of Germany, memel got the short end of the stick) and of corse Poland, so yes, your quite right. Though I would base the Germany in the game on modern Germany. She hasn't returned to her hight... yet!

 

[Falk]

It didn't go Holy Roman Empire -> Germany. It went Holy Roman Empire -> Prussia -> Germany

This also is a simplification. So why not simplify it further and say HRE -> Germany? I dont see how your simplification is any better than the latter.

From 1805 to 1871 there really wasnt such a thing as "Germany", only small German states. But before and after this period there was (and is) a Germany. The fact that the first Reich did include several non-German-speaking people and non-German territories doesnt make it any "less German".
So it's fair to say HRE -> Germany and saying HRE -> Prussia -> Germany is not better nor worse. Both is just a different view on the same thing.

 

[Menzies]

Maybe lets simplify it some more and then *LARGE EXPLOSION* BUGGER! Now look what you have done, now I need a new patience fuse.

What the hell, you assume I don't know this. Yes, there really wasn't a true Germany and the first reich was concidered to be the Holy Roman Empire. They are still different entities.

 

[Falk]

Well, yeah, you seem not to know it. You keep saying that the HRE never became Germany which is just plain wrong. Or if it's true then it's also true that Prussia never became Germany.

HRE -> Prussia/Habsburg -> Deutscher Bund/Prussia/Austria -> Kaiserreich under Prussian lead -> de facto military regime under the OHL -> Weimar Republic -> Third Reich -> zones of occupation -> FRG/GDR -> Germany

Now you probably know that, too. What that means is: It starts with HRE, ends with Germany: the HRE became Germany. Stop saying it didnt.

 

[TheLastOne36]

HRE is germany for the love of god. When will you get it.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think its time we catalog these for future reference.

There's already way too many acronyms being used on civfanatics.com, many of whose's meanings aren't obvious to everyone and can be utterly confusing to people new to civfanatics. Adding the Holy Roman Empire just gives another possible acronym to be used by those people who are too lazy to make their messages easily understood by their readers by actually typing in what they mean in full

(That was a semi-serious message from someone who doesn't really care either way what new Civs are in Beyond the Sword, but who doesn't appreciate having to scroll halfway down a thread in order to find out what the thread title means...)

 

[Menzies]

Well, yeah, you seem not to know it. You keep saying that the HRE never became Germany which is just plain wrong. Or if it's true then it's also true that Prussia never became Germany.

HRE -> Prussia/Habsburg -> Deutscher Bund/Prussia/Austria -> Kaiserreich under Prussian lead -> de facto military regime under the OHL -> Weimar Republic -> Third Reich -> zones of occupation -> FRG/GDR -> Germany

Now you probably know that, too. What that means is: It starts with HRE, ends with Germany: the HRE became Germany. Stop saying it didnt.

Now first of all this isn't vector physics.

With that said, I would make it more like

Holy Roman Empire -> Prussia + [later] Hapsburg Austria + Northern Italy, lots of small states, Hapsburg Austria -> Austria Hungary, Prussia -> German Empire, Austria-Hungary-> Dissolved mess, German Empire-> Post-revolutionary regime [very short time], Dissolved mess -> Austria, Hungary, Czechaslovakia, Yugoslavia, Romania & Poland, Germany Empire-> France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Poland... and of corse Weimar Germany. Germany-> Nazi Germany, Nazi Germany + Austria + Sudetenland + Rest of Czechaslovakia... -> Nazi Germany, Nazi Germany -> a complete mess, the aforementioned mess-> zone of control + Austria and the rest -> East and West -> Germany-> Italians cheating in 2006 fifa world cup in kaiserslauten.

Though there is a bit too much emphasis on the 20th century and none before Prussia split itself somewhat off. meh!