What posesses a pilot...

[r16]

the "Catalan" Media reported 39 Turks perished onboard , later quickly amended to one by German authorities . Still there was insistence that a complete breakdown of nationalities would not be available due people holding double citizenships . Weird in an age it's almost possible to know what colour the passengers' underwear are , by the use of thermal cameras .

must also be a factor why the presenter of today's morning almost wetted himself laughing . It seems the Spanish media now declares the Aliens speak Turkish . While it's quite possible for the media of New Turkey to make up stuff as they always do , it's just poignant and stuff that they base this on a supposed 2010 US Intelligence report . No , Turkish can not be possibly be spoken up there and no , Spaniards can not be possibly thinking it to be so . But hell yes that people can find a guy off the street can fill him with hatred and a supposed cool as he murder innocents ; as a warning to what might happen . It's not ages that Malaysia proved manhood by getting a plane shot down as their crews failed to "disappear" in the first place . Not one is supposed to believe in this ; as the show goes on and the Saudis declare they are in action in Yemen with 150 000 troops , so that all the media can declare them the leaders of the Sunni world . Spanish apprehension merely depends on whether there would be some inquisition to see what the hell happens , considering they would have to explain the aftermath ...

oh yeah , Germans always love to play second fiddle ; didn't they have a sucider pilot after 9/11 demanding revenge for the female teacher who died on the Challenger ?

 

[Verbose]

It's reported that the calm measured breath of the co-pilot alone in the cock-pit can be heard all they way up to the plane hitting the ground.

Pundits on my public service radio are also indicating that we have some five instances of pilots committing suicide by taking the aircraft + passengers with them in the last twenty years or so. (Though so far possibly none of the aircraft this large, with a passenger roster this long.) It's rare, but not unprecedented apparently.

 

[Steph]

I think the thing you would have going for you is that they didn't design the door to stand up to a sustained effort to get through it under the (valid) assumption that a terrorist would be stopped sooner rather than later. I'm thinking there should have been a way to pry it open if they were to work at it for a while myself, and no matter where you are there are always levers available, but just throwing a body against a steel door is a no win prospect, no matter how driven the body might be.

It is possible to break the door with the security axe. There is one in the plane. But it takes longer than they had.

 

[Steph]

The part that I am having so much trouble with is that it seems to be to no purpose. I mean, I can deal with a bad purpose. I don't like it, but I can get by it. A misguided purpose. Like if they found some rambling crazy 'no one ever listened to me so I had to get attention' note left behind I wouldn't like it or think it justified anything but at least I could get some sort of grip on it. Political grandstanding. Revenge. Whatever.

Yes, this is beyond understanding. Look at Charlie Hebdo attack: 12 people killed by two terrorist. This was wrong, but "at least" the terrorists attacked a clear target, with a good reason in their twisted mind.

Here, one guy killed 12 time more people for no reason!!

 

[Kyriakos]

The terror of the heights.

Btw: is it yet established if this pilot had a peculiar background/other-or mental issues?

RIP again..

 

[Steph]

From what I read the only thing we know at the moment was that he had a depression a few years ago.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I was barely half awake, but there was a psychologist on the radio early this morning saying that some kind of schizoid disorder could lead a person to commit suicide without care for whether he takes out a bunch of other people. This wasn't an analysis of anything, he was just speculating.

 

[Kyriakos]

Cause schizoid people just don't give a ****, ok...

Then again if he was suicidal, death by downing a large civilian plane with 150 other people is hardly the worst method, eg next to self-immolation or falling on your own from a middle-rise and risking living with paraplegic ailments.

 

[Bootstoots]

What I don't get is why he didn't say anything to himself/the cockpit voice recorder as he was crashing the plane. I would have expected some sort of explanation, angry rant, psychotic rambling, or at least an "Allahu akbar" to mess with the crash investigators.

 

[Tigranes]

In 2009, he was diagnosed with a Major Depressive Disorder and given a “special regular medical examination” by a doctor as well as the coding “SIC”. This coding also appeared on his Medical Certificate which apparently made him tear up grounding notes from his physician on the day of the crash.

What is known about Major Depressive Disorder? How bad is it? Anyone here ever been diagnosed with it?

 

[Commodore]

What a world we are living in. 9/11 prompts cockpit doors that can be locked from inside for 5 minutes. This tragedy creates new rules. Where is a guaranty that this will not play some part in a future tragedy. I am officially glass empty today, very cruel story, guys...

One thing that helped me get over my pessimism towards the human race was coming to terms with the fact that I am no longer truly safe at any moment and I could become a casualty of someone else's crazy.

Now when I say you have to come to terms with that, I do not mean merely realizing that we aren't safe at any moment. You have to make that realization AND accept it; become comfortable with it. Once I did that, a great amount of stress and worry disappeared from my life and incidents like this stopped bothering me so much.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's not merely someone else's mental struggles, it's someone else's momentary distraction or inattention. I drive everyday. I can, and have, prevented some possibly fatal accidents. But I can't prevent all possible permutations. Mine still might be out there, if it is, it'll probably be caused by somebody who is not a monster. It might even be me.

 

[Kyriakos]

What I don't get is why he didn't say anything to himself/the cockpit voice recorder as he was crashing the plane. I would have expected some sort of explanation, angry rant, psychotic rambling, or at least an "Allahu akbar" to mess with the crash investigators.

Maybe he wanted to and planned to. But his overpowering speech impediment made him stay silent for those last minutes.

Again: any reports on/by actual family members and not just hearsay or "he was batX insane"?

 

[Wastl]

So some flight crew member sits in for the pilot and has to get banged over the head. There's really no accounting for crazy, so when crazy comes along it gets away with pretty much whatever no matter what precautions you try to take. This one is just seemingly so pointlessly crazy...

It's all about opportunity really. Sure, if you end up with a crazy person who absolutely wants a plane to go down, he will not care about knocking out a person, but I don't think that's the case here. People have a hard time taking their own life when someone is around, they prefer to minimize the possibility of failure, they will wait for an opportunity to be alone. In this case, the crew already had flown to Barcelona in the morning, meaning the co-pilot had more than enough opportunity to try something stupid or take out the pilot, yet he waited until the pilot was gone.

In a way it is similar to the way guns impact suicides. In a comparison between states with low gun-ownership and high gun-ownership (at equal population size), the amount of times other ways to commit suicide were used stays about the same, but the guns create a huge disparacy, leading to far more suicides overall. This is because guns are a pretty effective and easy way to kill yourself compared to most other methods used. If people suddenly get suicidal tendencies, they are more likely to actually act on it if they have the means to do so (like a gun), while not having the necessary means at hand leads to the feelings passing away for some time. In other words, anything that can't be done quickly gives you too much time to cool down.
In the same way, having two people around at all times takes away the opportunity to act on impulse and significantly raises the bar you need to pass. It's one thing to take people with you to death, it is something entirely different to physically attack someone to get to that point. A terrorist may not have a problem with the second option, but someone who is suicidal will have far bigger problems with it. Anything that limits the opportunities is a good move, even if it doesn't deal with every possible issue.


Not everyone wants to tell the world why they do something. Not to mention that you can only actively tell someone about something if you have planned it. If you are in a bad mood, suddenly get an opportunity to kill yourself and just snap, you won't necessarily have an elaborate reason for it which you want to share with the world.

 

[classical_hero]

Maybe the one pilot had a heart attack or lost consciousness somehow?

The voice recorder shows that the co-pilot was alive and they could hear him breathing normally.

 

[Kozmos]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32087203

So it is probably depression, but maybe there was another physical illness at play here. Anyway more shunning of the 'crazy' people is sure to follow.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's all about opportunity really. Sure, if you end up with a crazy person who absolutely wants a plane to go down, he will not care about knocking out a person, but I don't think that's the case here. People have a hard time taking their own life when someone is around, they prefer to minimize the possibility of failure, they will wait for an opportunity to be alone. In this case, the crew already had flown to Barcelona in the morning, meaning the co-pilot had more than enough opportunity to try something stupid or take out the pilot, yet he waited until the pilot was gone.

In a way it is similar to the way guns impact suicides. In a comparison between states with low gun-ownership and high gun-ownership (at equal population size), the amount of times other ways to commit suicide were used stays about the same, but the guns create a huge disparacy, leading to far more suicides overall. This is because guns are a pretty effective and easy way to kill yourself compared to most other methods used. If people suddenly get suicidal tendencies, they are more likely to actually act on it if they have the means to do so (like a gun), while not having the necessary means at hand leads to the feelings passing away for some time. In other words, anything that can't be done quickly gives you too much time to cool down.
In the same way, having two people around at all times takes away the opportunity to act on impulse and significantly raises the bar you need to pass. It's one thing to take people with you to death, it is something entirely different to physically attack someone to get to that point. A terrorist may not have a problem with the second option, but someone who is suicidal will have far bigger problems with it. Anything that limits the opportunities is a good move, even if it doesn't deal with every possible issue.


Not everyone wants to tell the world why they do something. Not to mention that you can only actively tell someone about something if you have planned it. If you are in a bad mood, suddenly get an opportunity to kill yourself and just snap, you won't necessarily have an elaborate reason for it which you want to share with the world.

Thanks. That made a lot of sense. I wasn't really considering this act in terms of it being impulsive, but you make it obvious that it very well may have been.

 

[Bootstoots]

This act definitely seems impulsive to me as well. The lack of any note, manifesto, recording, or even meaningful last words makes me think he made the decision suddenly.

One of the things that is often misunderstood about suicide is that it's very frequently an impulsive decision. The depression may last for years, but the time between the decision and the act may be very short. Although the risk of eventual suicide in people with at least one unsuccessful suicide attempt is unsurprisingly far higher than the general population, the fact is that the vast majority of people who attempt suicide and survive never actually do kill themselves and are usually grateful to have lived.

What is unusual about this case isn't that someone killed himself on a whim, but that he took out 149 other people with him. That's why I'm surprised there wasn't something left behind. Then again, in his mental state, it's possible that he just wanted to destroy himself then and there without any concern for other people.

What is know about Major Depressive Disorder? How bad is it? Anyone here ever been diagnosed with it?

Major Depressive Disorder is unipolar depression - they're more or less the same thing. It's generally what people mean when they talk about "depression", although that can include similar disorders including dysthymia, the depressive phases of bipolar disorder, and the low-light phase of seasonal affective disorder.

IIRC, it's the most common of all mental disorders. Severity can range from a single, relatively mild episode of a couple of months to an essentially permanent condition that severely impairs a patient's ability to function socially, hold down a job, or even get out of bed in the worst cases.

I've been diagnosed with it, as have probably >10% of this forum. Patients often go through a large number of psychotropic drugs, counseling and other types of therapy, lifestyle changes or attempts at them, and whatnot, with success rates that are better than nothing but still disappointing.

I'm not suicidal, but it's a mindset that makes a certain amount of sense to me. What I don't get is why someone would be willing to kill so many other people as well, and with no stated reason for doing so.

 

[Tigranes]

Major depressive disorder is a disabling condition that adversely affects a person's family, work or school life, sleeping and eating habits, and general health. In the United States, around 3.4% of people with major depression commit suicide, and up to 60% of people who commit suicide had depression or another mood disorder.

I wonder how people get themselves diagnosed in a first place. If the pilot was so upset with the career repercussions of such diagnosis -- it is unlikely he went to doctors himself. But if was referred to medical evaluation by some agency, how come an employee could hide such a fact from the employer? How can it be up to the pilot to disclose his condition given the clear conflict of interests?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Okay. Going with the 'impulsive decision' based on no manifsto, etc etc...which to me still doesn't really account for not (at least) saying "goodby cruel world" or something to that open mic...why the controlled descent? Guy makes that impulsive decision, why not snap off the autopilot, shove the stick, thirty seconds to glory? Eight minutes seems like a long time to just sit there dying. Maybe that's just in my not suicidal perspective I guess...