What posesses a pilot...

[cybrxkhan]

I've been diagnosed with it, as have probably >10% of this forum. Patients often go through a large number of psychotropic drugs, counseling and other types of therapy, lifestyle changes or attempts at them, and whatnot, with success rates that are better than nothing but still disappointing.

I'm not suicidal, but it's a mindset that makes a certain amount of sense to me. What I don't get is why someone would be willing to kill so many other people as well, and with no stated reason for doing so.

As one of the >10% (though with I believe a mild case) I can also make sense of the mindset but also be a bit baffled at why he'd need to kill others as well. Sometimes folks with depression don't make sense, at the end of the day, so maybe that applies here too.

I wonder how people get themselves diagnosed in a first place. If the pilot was so upset with the career repercussions of such diagnosis -- it is unlikely he went to doctors himself. But if was referred to medical evaluation by some agency, how come an employee could hide such a fact from the employer? How can it be up to the pilot to disclose his condition given the clear conflict of interests?

I don't know how things are in Europe, but at least here in the states there's still a bit of a stigma associated with mental illness and a lot of lack of information - ie the idea that people with mental illness are raving lunatic killers or insane suicidal bipolar people - so it results in a lot of people not wanting to advertise their condition, so to speak. There's also the fact that even after diagnosis a person might refuse to believe, or is uncertain, about the fact that they're mentally ill. In my case, though I have mild depression, it took me almost a year for me to conclude that, yes, I have some problem, even if I'm not thinking about suicide or screaming my head off - I wager for someone with a more severe case it might take even longer, or it'll be much more difficult for them to come to terms with it (for me it just took a bit of talking with a couple of good friends and an anime to get me to my realization). Other factors - economic, cultural, and so on - may also play a role here. Even after that, and after counseling, I sometimes still wonder whether I really have a problem or I'm just being a whiny 1st world problem sort of person. So, it's quite possible that somehow the pilot just worked to convince others, and maybe even himself, that somehow, he was alright, with tragic results.

Again, I'm just saying this from the perspective of someone in America. I don't know the state of affairs for mental health and its treatment in Europe, but I'm assuming there may be a few similarities.

 

[Bootstoots]

I wonder how people get themselves diagnosed in a first place. If the pilot was so upset with the career repercussions of such diagnosis -- it is unlikely he went to doctors himself. But if was referred to medical evaluation by some agency, how come an employee could hide such a fact from the employer? How can it be up to the pilot to disclose his condition given the clear conflict of interests?

Medical privacy protects employees in nearly all cases from being forced to disclose any medical problem, including mental ones, from their employers. But submitting a medical excuse more or less forces him to tell his co-workers something, which could be why he tore up his doctor's note and flew anyway despite his abysmal mental health. I doubt he expected to crash the plane

In general, privacy about mental conditions is a good policy. Otherwise, given the known effects of major depression on job performance, any employer would have an incentive to get rid of any depressed employee. Of course a pretext would be made up, but the effect would be the same. This would make a large proportion of the population much less employable and would prevent people from seeking treatment for depression.

It could be argued that in a few positions involving many other people's lives, such as being a commercial pilot, privacy rules shouldn't apply. But then, no pilot with depression would seek treatment for it. This sort of spectacular mass homicide/suicide is extraordinarily uncommon anyway under the status quo, and a policy breaking privacy would probably increase the risk by decreasing pilot treatment rates.

Okay. Going with the 'impulsive decision' based on no manifsto, etc etc...which to me still doesn't really account for not (at least) saying "goodby cruel world" or something to that open mic...why the controlled descent? Guy makes that impulsive decision, why not snap off the autopilot, shove the stick, thirty seconds to glory? Eight minutes seems like a long time to just sit there dying. Maybe that's just in my not suicidal perspective I guess...

It was probably easier to do that than anything else, given that modern Airbus planes have autopilot that is always on unless it fails and prevents pilots from entering dangerous inputs unless it is kicked off beforehand. This gives me an excuse to talk about my favorite major crash from the last few years: Air France Flight 447!

In that case, one of the pilots accidentally crashed the plane (an A330) because the autopilot was temporarily disabled when the pitot tubes, which determine the airspeed, were briefly knocked offline by icing during a thunderstorm. The autopilot was disengaged, and the inexperienced second officer pulled up on the stick, stalled the plane, had no idea how to respond to a simple stall, and crashed the plane after a 5 minute free fall.

What confused the second officer enough to cause a fatal accident is that the autopilot, which ordinarily is always on, would normally not allow the pilot to stall the plane. Pulling back on the stick would just result in a normal climb, not an excessive climb followed by a stall. Even though simple stall recovery is a basic maneuver from flight school, the second officer did not recognize it when it happened in his plane because he had been trained under the assumption the autopilot will prevent nonsensical inputs and avoid stalls. But his autopilot had shut itself off because of an instrument malfunction, so it was no longer preventing the pilot from causing a stall. So they stalled and fell from 38000 to 9000 feet before anybody could figure out what was happening. The other two pilots, who were much more experienced, did figure it out - 40 seconds before impact in the mid-Atlantic.

This pilot crashed the plane deliberately, and the autopilot was apparently working the whole time. But he had less than 1/3 the flight hours and was younger (27 vs 32) than the Air France pilot. From his perspective, it was probably much easier to just set the autopilot to descend to 96 feet than to override it and send the plane into an even more extreme dive. And if you're really determined to commit suicide, to the tune of 149 other unwilling people, 8 minutes isn't necessarily too long to wait. With a controlled descent, the crash will be much less unpleasant than a violent dive.

 

[Tigranes]

Andreas Lubitz wanted to “change the system” and said “one day everyone would know his name”, an ex-girlfriend of the 27-year-old has told German tabloid Bild.

If anyone here is from Germany -- how credible Bild is? Tabloids can be different from each other, you know. Although I find it highly suspicious that girlfriend would talk to Bild instead of Spiegel or CNN for that matter.

 

[uppi]

If anyone here is from Germany -- how credible Bild is? Tabloids can be different from each other, you know. Although I find it highly suspicious that girlfriend would talk to Bild instead of Spiegel or CNN for that matter.

Credible? Not at all. They are known for being rather loose with facts when it suits them and there are countless examples of them trying to push an agenda.

Why the girlfriend would talk to them? There are many reasons to talk to Bild and one of them is that it might be dangerous to not talk to them.

 

[Kyriakos]

Credible? Not at all. They are known for being rather loose with facts when it suits them and there are countless examples of them trying to push an agenda.

Why the girlfriend would talk to them? There are many reasons to talk to Bild and one of them is that it might be dangerous to not talk to them.

Yes. Captain Bild will save the day, again.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Somehow the thought of a guy alone in a cockpit not even knowing enough about the aircraft to crash it without the autopilot helping him really disturbs me, but thanks for another reasonable explanation Boots.

 

[Tigranes]

The insight into the personal suffering of Lubitz's family comes after a haunting new image emerged of the pilot. It was also claimed today that he may have sought treatment for problems with his vision in the weeks leading up to the crash.
Lubitz, who is pictured smiling into the camera in the selfie which appears to have been taken in his bathroom, is said to have sought help over his vision as recently as March 10, amid fears his eye problems may have jeopardised his ability to continue working as a pilot.
It came as police revealed that evidence found at his home suggested he was suffering from a 'serious psychosomatic illness'. Officers reportedly found a variety of drugs used to treat mental illness at his flat in Dusseldorf, appearing to substantiate claims he was severely depressed.
And a former partner described him as a tormented, erratic man who was a master of hiding his darkest thoughts and would wake up from nightmares screaming ‘we’re going down’.
The 26-year-old Germanwings stewardess, known only as Maria W, revealed to a German newspaper how Lubitz ominously told her last year: ‘One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it.’
The startling revelations add weight to the claims that Lubitz tried to conceal medical conditions that should have stopped him flying.

Investigators said medical sign-off notes were found at his home - including at least one that covered the day of the crash - and Dusseldorf University Hospital confirmed he had been a patient there over the past two months.
While the hospital would not initially disclose his condition, bosses confirmed that he had been evaluated at the clinic in February and on March 10.
The hospital, which has its own eye clinic, later denied speculation that he sought treatment for depression at the centre but would not confirm he had attended for vision problems, citing privacy laws.
It came as German newspaper Welt am Sonntag said police found evidence at his flat which suggested he was suffering from 'severe burnout syndrome' - a serious psychosomatic illness.
A source in the police investigation team told the newspaper that Lubitz was treated by several neurologists and psychiatrists, before adding: 'This is clear from personal notes stored and collected by the pilot.'
'Severe burnout syndrome' is a state of emotional, mental and physical exhaustion and is often linked to those in jobs with high stress levels.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The 26-year-old Germanwings stewardess, known only as Maria W, revealed to a German newspaper how Lubitz ominously told her last year: ‘One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it.’

Now, that is the kind of statement that just doesn't jibe with sitting silently in front of an open mic for eight minutes...to me. It so doesn't jibe that I have to wonder about Maria's memory here.

The hospital, which has its own eye clinic, later denied speculation that he sought treatment for depression at the centre but would not confirm he had attended for vision problems, citing privacy laws.

And this seems like a very lame attempt at application of privacy laws. "We can deny treating him for depression, but we can't comment at all about treating his vision." If you can't comment on one, you can't comment on the other, period. Applying privacy laws any other way just doesn't work. I'm fairly certain that German law, like any other, would be unimpressed with this.

 

[ori]

Given the rather chaotic way university hospitals here tend to be organized its more likely the psychiatric department saying - we never saw him and the vision specialists saying (better i might say) cannot comment. It might even have gone through the same spokesperson, without me wondering about anything really.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

On understanding his actions: I don't find it hard to understand, honestly. I am never sure weather others genuinely can't or just want to express their disgust/anger that way or want to comfort themselves by distancing themselves (and their peers) from such a person.

I don't want to claim to be able to shed light on all aspects or variants of the why, but here is one look at it which sounds perfectly reasonable and understandable to me (not reasonable as in: yep, approve of this and not understandable as in: yep feel the same way - but as in: yep, that is part of how humans tick):

I think the first important step is to realize that depression tends to reduce empathy. Quit naturally so, I think, too. Depression can be crudely understood as a lack of seeing worth. Be it in mundane tasks and obligations or even people. This tendency is only worsened when you try to compensate for that lack of worth with illusion of grandeur, as this guy apparently did. Because that will only increase the pressure on you which will drive your empathy down further. It also represents a mindset of fundamental opposition to how things are, which already carries a seed of great adversity which may mutate into something being directed against people as such.
And at some juncture, this lack of worthy and by extension empathy simply can lead to a situation where you stop minding to kill others. However, even in a most severe depression with a most morbid state of mind suicide still will tend to be a difficult decision. Taking others with you then can make it easier because you are not going it alone.
And that is it. I can of course not say what actually was going on in this guys head. But that is my spontaneous take on it. Nothing mysterious about it, from what I can see

 

[Kozmos]

Well you can see how people who haven't been depressed above a mild level might have difficulty understanding the point of view and action from there in. It's like trying to describe a drug experience to people who've never done any.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You can be sure about me. If I had an open mic for eight minutes and absolute certainty that what I said in those eight minutes would be examined world wide for the foreseeable future you can rest assured that I'd have something to say. That's the only distance between the guy and anyone else, as far as I can tell.

Depressed, suicidal, willing to kill...those things happen. Genuinely having nothing to say...that seems exceeding rare.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I have to wonder why you think so. How many suicides actually come with a suicide note? And how many of that are written because one thinks one owes it people left behind rather than because one has the desire to explain? Since suicide as a response to clinical depression tends to be an expression of not seeing/feeling worth, why is it weird if that included seeing no worth in having a little speech at the end?

Well you can see how people who haven't been depressed above a mild level might have difficulty understanding the point of view and action from there in. It's like trying to describe a drug experience to people who've never done any.

One may not know how exactly it feels. But that IMO is no excuse, this is not quantum science. From my perspective, if one can not understand such behavior, one does not understand how humans work to begin with. Like one viewed humans as some kind of fantasy figure, like some sort of flat cliche rather than actual humans out of flesh and blood.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Suicides without explanation may be fairly common (I'm not sure that's so, but I'll concede it rather than argue it) but I honestly don't know of anyone else who accounted for multiple deaths without leaving a comment of some sort. But there is something new every day.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Google suicides with family murder and I am sure you will find plenty.

I think what confuses you perhaps is that it is rare that someone so casually kills many people in the course of a suicide, because usually killing many people can not be casually done. It requires commitment, a certain lust to go out with a bang. Which should correlate to a desire to express oneself also in other ways. If you don't have that lust and are the silent suicidal type, but still would like some company, you usually will just forgo the company, I suppose. A pilot is in a unique position, in this case. He can take a lot of people with him with as little effort as locking a door and giving a computer a few commands.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Google suicides with family murder and I am sure you will find plenty.

I think what confuses you perhaps is that it is rare that someone so casually kills many people in the course of a suicide, because usually killing many people can not be casually done. It requires commitment, a certain lust to go out with a bang. Which should correlate to a desire to express oneself also in other ways. If you don't have that lust and are the silent suicidal type, but still would like some company, you usually will just forgo the company, I suppose. A pilot is in a unique position, in this case. He can take a lot of people with him with as little effort as locking a door and giving a computer a few commands.

That makes sense. It is just an unusual circumstance. There are certainly cases where a driver suddenly decides to crash their car. They don't leave any commentary. This would be basically the same thing, just bigger and slower.

 

[Kozmos]

One may not know how exactly it feels. But that IMO is no excuse, this is not quantum science. From my perspective, if one can not understand such behavior, one does not understand how humans work to begin with. Like one viewed humans as some kind of fantasy figure, like some sort of flat cliche rather than actual humans out of flesh and blood.

Human imagination cannot capture the overwhelming feeling of apathy and flatness that comes with deep depression. If you are feeling fine you just can't. You can theoretically imagine it and think you've grasped some of it, but it's really nothing compared to the hollowness you feel experiencing it. There is no hope. There isn't a Gandalf on the third day. Just nothingness. Numbers in a number crunching machine. Souls in the soul grinder.

If they all had that experience, I guarantee nobody would be calling him a monster or whatever other convenient labels they use.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Everyone knows what it means to have no hope or to dispar or to be beyond caring about something. You just have to extrapolate. I agree that this doesn't suffice to imagination the full actual weight of it. But it does at least more or less suffice to understand it, IMO.
I think the reason people say and do what they do and say is mostly because they are kinda dumb. Or shall we say unsophisticated in their reasoning/attitude.

 

[Tahuti]

As one of the >10% (though with I believe a mild case) I can also make sense of the mindset but also be a bit baffled at why he'd need to kill others as well. Sometimes folks with depression don't make sense, at the end of the day, so maybe that applies here too.

Maybe he was motivated by nihilism too. Whenever I felt depressed, I usually felt nihilistic too.

Essentially, "I don't give a **** about other people either, their lives are as meaningless as mine".

 

[r16]

supposedly with eye problems as well , ditched by the girlfriend , in addition to the oft described depression . Will lose all starting with his job ; being a pilot is cool , not being is not cool .

hence no problem with with making others lose as well . It helps immensely when the perpetrator doesn't shout "Allahu Akbar!" . Now that the Nusra Front had 24 suicide attacks simultenaously in Idlip ; it's in the DNA , right ? Oh yeah , still sticking to that . Neverminding the Canadian 320 that overran the runway as well .

perhaps shouldn't dwell too much but can not be helped . Since te notion of Aliens has caused consternation in the city as it appears . No , the Spanish do not believe in Aliens , let alone Turkish speaking Aliens . It's just doubletalk that implies the same values are kinda not shared - which would be real weird to happen , why would we want Turkey destroyed and we all dead ? And the airplane angle arrives from the thing that the 1973 Turkish Airlines DC-10 crash in Paris was the biggest loss of life until then and the McDonnell Douglas hushed it up with the "admission" that it was possible that the groundcrews "could" be confused by the hangar door on the plane and assume it was locked and safe for flight while it actually was not . So when in 1975 the Pan Am and KLA ran into each other in the Canary Islands , there was this call of "Come, if you are man enough." It wasn't anything to us , but people just love the attitude , right ? The Lord Vader's translator is still banned from entering Spain to this day .