What to do for Europe?

[Gooblah]

NikNaks:

I like the idea of a separate International Relations Advisor. Perhaps an extension of the foreign Advisor?

At any rate, we can still have all the Civs see all the categories. However, in each Category (African Union, ASEAN, Gulf Cooperation Council (?), Nato, European Union, United Nations), have an extra choice: Non-Member.

A Civilization would be locked into these Civics until an event formally changed them.

 

[NikNaks]

Yes, an extension of the Foreign Advisor is probably a better idea.

Non-member is already an option, but adding that functionality would be great

 

[Agent327]

well for Europe i think we should do the vassal thing. the EU civ i guess can include Belgium Netherlands Luxembourg and Switzerland, whereas the major vassal nations can be France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden i think, and the UK should be an independent civ. The capital of the EU should be either Geneva, Switzerland or Brussels, Belgium

EU + vassals isn't accurate: individual EU members can make war without the EU being involved (UK: Falkland War, Operation Iraqi Freedom; France: interventions in African civil wars; Germany however seems only to operate within international orgs, like UN and NATO). Tricky stuff. (Even EU + allies/defensive pact isn't accurate...) An extension of the Foreign Advisor as suggested seems best, IMO.

 

[Amogos]

In case that no one has sugested it: Why not make a second U.N. but for E.U., only European countries can enter.

 

[NikNaks]

Yes, that's been mentioned. I came up with that on the last page

 

[Skell Jell]

I think Europe should be divided into the most important countries. But these countries should be connected as a EU corporation. Some countries should be excluded though. Such as Armenia and Georgia. Some of countries with the EU corporation should be in NATO. Britain should also have a Permanent Alliance with the U.S.

 

[Skell Jell]

To add to my last posting. The most important countries in Europe are: Spain, France, Germany, Italy, U.K., Northern Europe (Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Denmark and Norway) Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg), Former Soviet Republics(Armenia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania,Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine),Balkan Countries(Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Croatia, and B+H[Bosnia and Herzegovina]), and Middle Europe(Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Hungary) Kosovo, Switzerland and Ireland are Barbarian States. Georgia is a separate Nation with a small army. This organization of Europe simplifies things.

 

[Skell Jell]

Crowqueen: I totally agree with all your points and concerning opinions about EU I am exactly in the same situation.

BUT we have to decide between two alternatives that are both not realistic:

1. Have a more or less divided EU as it is in reality being forced to unite other important states into one civ that are even less working together than EU member states or are even hostile. And it will be difficult for single European nation states to develop their actual political power due to their small size.

2. Have a more or less united EU and thus twist reality in Europe.

I think the solution with one EU civ and 2-3 civs that are Vassals to it is the best compromise. That way you don't splinter Europe too much and both developments are possible (EU growing together or falling apart).
My suggestion:
EU civ: France, Benelux, Germany, Denmark, Austria, Sweden, Finland
Southern Europe: Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece
UK: Great Britain, Ireland
Eastern Europe: Baltic States, Poland, Czech Rep., Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria

I agree. JUST STOP ARGUING. We will never get anything done. We need a compromise. Step up to the plate people!

 

[Skell Jell]

In the major points i agree with you ianinsane.

Yes the EU is not an international block with an united voice, but it isn't either an unimportant and weak agreement between national states which don't give up anything of their sovereignty.

First I was a strong supporter of mixing the whole EU together to one civ without any further distinction between the states. But good arguments convinced me, that this would be nice, but actually not show in any way the real working of the EU or its status in the world. So I am now a supporter of the 3rd proposition (I already wrote my reasons above). I only want to remind, that a divided Europe without any sort of European Union would be as unrealistic as one European-civ for the whole continent. Neither would show the real situation!

In my opinion there should be vassals representing the most important members ofhe EU and an EU-civ which holds all together (till somebody breaks away - or not).

1) France
2) Germany
3) UK
4) Italy
5) Spain
6) Hungary/Poland??? (an important eastern state)
7) Sweden

8) all other EU-cities which will be set on the continent will form the "EU-civilization"

In this way each big and important member state, respectively the culture area it "represents",would be there and if the EU should break apart, also the EU-civ could loose its cities to them. The other way around, it would be possible to make the EU an important and strong global player in the world, although with many difficulties and an complicated system of diplomatic-relations. Maybe it would even become wiser to let some vassals break away (for example the UK) to form a strong Union, depending on the diplomatic and foreign-politics situation.....

Anyway I think we should try to find a way to represent the EU in this mod!!!
I go along with any other suggestion (fewer vassals or blocs....) as long as the EU will be represented in the mod. I think it would be worth the work!!!!

I also agree. People. PLEASE LET'S HAVE PEACE. Can't everyone just get along??

 

[Skell Jell]

Can someone please start up a conversation about this.

 

[sheep21]

there was. you told eberyone to comprimise and stop arguing about it. so they did.

Looked at your idea thread for BtS skell, Great Tourist? Fominance in the east scenario, when two of the countries in it are either colonies of crippled?

Need a rethink my lad.

 

[Skell Jell]

Not all of the ideas need to be used in this mod. If you want that can be left out of World 2008 mod

 

[MasterOfDomain]

Why have so many jumped on the bandwagon of 'The UK isn't part of the European Union and should be a seperate state'. I am from England myself and hate this 'Little Britain' mentality, that we are somehow not really in Europe. The UK is one of the most powerful and influential figures in the Union; removing it would be wholly unrealistic and quite silly IMO.

Better I think would be a joint method of having seperate states (vassal states seems a tad false) with deals and agreements and also a number of Civics that allow for various degrees of integration: Trade, Military, Environment/Energy, Religion etc.

This means countries like the UK could be involved, albeit in a not so heavy position, with the movement of the Union.

To be honest I'm quite up for a European Union Nation, since it's the way things are heading and I think a plausible eventuality.

 

[DVS]

Please! lol

Love to have you on board, love to have your input, but we must kill the monster of the "what to do for Europe?" thread!

We have realized that we could spend a year talking about this, and it just takes time away from modding! We are going to go with a Europe split between EU/NATO, with both in the EU trade organization. This is no insult to anyone, just our best idea for functionality. EU civ would be too dominant otherwise, and how do we represent NATO? (Actually, please hold you answers to these questions for version 2.0 discussion!)

We can make changes if this doesn't work well in beta. The key right now is for us to stop talking about how we are going to make this mod, and just make it. Look how long this discussion has been taking place for!

 

[MasterOfDomain]

Fair enough. I can see why you want to put this to rest but I know why people take this seriously. Personally, does it matter if a EU Civ was dominant? ^_^

 

[DVS]

Yes! Because they are not a united military super power right now. Our mandate here is to create the real world as accurately as possible.

The UK has troops in Iraq, the EU doesn't. Different foreign policies. This was a major factor.

 

[MasterOfDomain]

Meh, perhaps inclusion to a super state such as the European Union for the UK means withdrawal from Iraq? Regardless, the last troops from the country are pulling out as we speak, very shortly that comment will be void. But agreed, the EU and other countries do have different political agendas.

 

[sheep21]

MasterOfDomain, myself and DVS aswell as the rest of the team have talked, argued and discussed this point ad nauseum.

The relationship of the UK with the EU will be up for discussion again once (its only a matter of time) the UK joins the Euro, being a part of a common currency. Then we will fully be a part of the EU State in nearly every way.

 

[NikNaks]

Precisely. I, also as a Brit, think that it'll be both more realistic (politically) and more interesting to play for now.

 

[ganjha]

Whatever you do just make sure that Norway and Iceland have no connection to the EU. They however could be a single country with plenty of fish resources, and even include the Fareo islands and Greenland (seeing both have limited home rule from Denmark, and are not members of the EU.)