What to do with our GL?

[Chieftess]

1 - Newton's University

I've already said that it would help us when we ARE up to speed, and it would prevent Greece from even using it. Sure, the Greeks might build it (they're probably already a couple of techs ahead), but no one has Scientific Method yet (no one has medicine), and the AI isn't going to wait, so any Universal Suffrage builds will be very expensive units or improvements.

2 - Universal Suffrage

This is great if we're actually going into a democracy. Even then, there's still a chance for war wariness, especially since we'll be locked in 20-turn wars. Not all of our cities even have markets, so there's no extra lux bonus. We don't even have Industrialization yet, so we'd have to wait maybe 30 turns each. Ever notice how long it's taken us? At times, we couldn't trade for a tech until we were 35 turns into it.

3 - ToE

We are 4 techs away from this wonder! At the most, that's 160 turns of research (cut that down to 70-100 if we trade). We'll need a HUGE cash flow for these techs (which is why we should get rails ASAP).

4 - Army

Army's always a good option if we don't want to build (or wait for) any wonders.

5 - Palace Relocation

There was a poll a while back where people stated that they didn't want to move it just yet.

 

[Shaitan]

Universal Suffrage.

This is the crown jewel for democracies and even if we never go to democracy ourselves it is still vital to keep it away from the other civs.

As donsig noted, we need a plan to get the techs and this should be done as quickly as possible.

 

[philippe]

I say get to TOE. the science beakers of Newton compares nothing to TOE

 

[Shaitan]

We are too far away from TOE. Keeping a leader on ice that long would almost be a guarantee of missing another great leader.

 

[Cheetah]

I think we should use the GL to get US. It is much more valuable, both to the AI and us, than NU.

 

[Octavian X]

Really, people, consider that all important factor of TIME. Remember, we don't exactly aqurie techs every 3 turns. While our Great Leader sits around with nothing to do, it prevents us from generating more Great Leaders. The sooner we use him on Newton U, an army, or anything else, the better. It will be a good 20 turns at least before we get techs to build any other wonder. Plus, once we get those techs, there's no guarentee that some other civ will have gotten them way before us, and have completed that wonder with it's own leader.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Octavian, keep in mind that we winding down on one war, embarking on a "phony" war where we won't see much action, and are in an era where starting wars would not be the best move due to defensive strength of riflemen in most foreign ciites against our cavalry. Of course there is always the chance that someone will foolishly declare war on us, but that shouldn't keep us from holding on to Horsa for a worthwhile wonder. And I think we really need to discuss if Universal Suffrage should be that wonder.

Getting to US is another thing entirely, but workable. For informational purposes, setting the science rate to 100% would get us Medicine in 10 turns. However, that would drop us to -140gpt! I think a quick path to Medicine is the answer, however, as we could use it to trade for both Steam Power and Industrialization.

What we should do now is threefold:

1. We should concentrate entirely on production of markets, banks, libraries and universities.

2. To protect ourselves during this time, we should shift our forces to provide the best defense of our borders. We have a good amount of units but are vulnerable in too many spots right now due to misplacement.

3. We should use as many workers as we have onhand now to increase the size of our low-corruption cities. This will stifle tile improvement for some time, but will allow us the gpt to offset a temporary rise of the science rate. Once we fulfill our goal, we can have a massive work program to get those workers back out.


Of course, this plan would only be valid if we as a nation really want Democracy. I really believe that Democracy would offer us more victory options should our conquest/domination efforts fall short. I also think that entering Democracy would ensure that we never have a scientific emergency like this again.

That said, I really think we should make a play for Universal Suffrage.

 

[FortyJ]

While Universal Suffrage would indeed be nice, I'm not sure it is practical at this time. Industrialization is 2 techs away and nobody seems to have any interest in trading us Steam Power, which is a necessary prerequisite for Industrialization.

Here's what I suggest:

1. Sign a new Peace Treaty with Greece, including an MPP with them. They will pay us 206gpt for this deal.
2. Sign an RoP with Russia (no cost, possibly even worth something to them...)
3. Move Horsa to Kyoto and rush Newton's University there ASAP. This will likely trigger our Golden Age!
4. Change our Science Budget to 100%. Thanks to Greece's generosity, we will still be operating at a surplus.
5. Sell Iron to Russia for as much as we can. Sell all surplus luxuries to all willing parties to maximize our income for upgrades and rush jobs.

At 100% research funding, we could discover Medicine in 10 turns (Steam Power in 9), possibly faster thanks to the doubling benefit of Newton's University. If it does, trigger our Golden Age, then we may even discover this tech sooner.

The only real risk of this plan is that we may waste our leader if we rush the wonder and Greece completes it before our next turn. This has happened to me before and it is no fun to lose a leader that way. Other than that, this plan jump starts our own research and frees us up for another GL immediately rather than several dozen turns down the road.

 

[Chieftess]

BTW, Newton's won't trigger a GA simply because we haven't built a militaristic wonder yet. Newton's is scientific, and you need BOTH attributes to trigger a GA.

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Chieftess
BTW, Newton's won't trigger a GA simply because we haven't built a militaristic wonder yet. Newton's is scientific, and you need BOTH attributes to trigger a GA.

I don't think that's right.... because there is only like two wonders that have more than one attribute...

 

[Octavian X]

IIRC, Strider's right. Only one trait needs to match.

 

[Eklektikos]

Having finally managed to find the tme to look at the saved game I am sticking to my original conclusion, which is that our Great Leader Horsa would be best expended in the creation of an Army.

My reasoning is as follows:
Newton's University is basically an irrelevance to us due to the way in which we run our economy, and it is not really a sufficiently powerful wonder to be worth going to such great expense to deny to our rivals.
Theory of Evolution is a good wonder and I would very much like to see us build it in the future, perhaps with our next Great Leader. I do not, however, consider holding on to a Leader for the length of time it will take us to acquire Scientific Method to be a sound strategy, since it denies us the possibility of generating another GL - something I fully expect us to have done by the time we do have the knowledge to build ToE.
Universal Suffrage is another good one to build from the point of view of denying it to our rivals, although I fervently hope we never end up using it ourselves in this game. I don't really see that many cons to using Horsa to build this, except for the fact that we would still have to wait to acquire the necessary tech while hoping that no-one else gets there first - always a risky business.

An Army on the other hand would give us an immediate use for the GL, thus ensuring that we don't miss out on any opportunities for future GLs. It would also give us that extra military edge that could prove so valuable at this point in the game, allowing us to smash through the toughest defenders in one shot rather than sustaining the usual high initial losses when attacking well garrisoned cities. Not only would we gain that advantage when attacking, but we could use it to shield our other Cavalry units in the field since the AI rarely bothers to attack Armies that are not gravely weakened. In an Army of Cavalry we would have a siege engine par excellence - fast, strong on the attack and not likely to be lost via attrition. It would make future conquest of our FP zone (and hopefully America in turn) much more efficient and speedy affairs - something which is unarguably desireable.

I urge all citizens of Fanatika to vote for the formation of an Army of Cavalry!

 

[Strider]

I still say the universal suffrage/ToE is the way to go..... We can build our own armies.... Don't we already have an army? What ever happened to that swordsmen army?

 

[Octavian X]

An interesting arguement, Eklektikos. I agree with you in the fact that we should use Horsa right away, rather than having him sit and do nothing.

I disagree in that, while an army would be an excellent option, the military academy is currently under construction in Kuhkaff. Within 20 turns, we will be able to build armies, making a army seem redundant.

In the unlikely, but entirely possible, event that Greece gets Newton U (they may have their own GL up a sleeve), I would support creating an army as option #2.

EDIT: Daggummit, Strider. You beat me to the punch. The sword army is currently acting as a defender somewhere (I can't recall at this time). Remember, those swords can't be taken out. Once a unit is in an army, it's permanent. Also, the Military Academy is still under construction in Kuhkaff. IIRC, there are 22 turns left until it's completion.

 

[Shaitan]

For a golden age to launch via wonder construction you need to have built wonders that include all of the civ special traits. They do not need to be in the same wonder. Newton's would satisfy the scientific requirement but another wonder that is militaristic would also need to be constructed before a golden age was triggered.

 

[Eklektikos]

Originally posted by Octavian X
An interesting arguement, Eklektikos. I agree with you in the fact that we should use Horsa right away, rather than having him sit and do nothing.

I disagree in that, while an army would be an excellent option, the military academy is currently under construction in Kuhkaff. Within 20 turns, we will be able to build armies, making a army seem redundant.

In the unlikely, but entirely possible, event that Greece gets Newton U (they may have their own GL up a sleeve), I would support creating an army as option #2.

EDIT: Daggummit, Strider. You beat me to the punch. The sword army is currently acting as a defender somewhere (I can't recall at this time). Remember, those swords can't be taken out. Once a unit is in an army, it's permanent. Also, the Military Academy is still under construction in Kuhkaff. IIRC, there are 22 turns left until it's completion.

The 22 turns that remain until completion are only the tip of the iceberg where the Military Academy is concerned. Remember that Armies themselves are very expensive to build, and that we could well be looking at twice that number of turns before we are able to complete one. As I have said, we need that edge now - not in 40 turns' time. I also fail to understand the rationale for building Newton's Univeristy, since we (rightly) spend absolutely nothing on science

 

[Cyc]

Looks like Eklektikos is right. It seems the road to Kyoto will be a difficult one. NU will NOT be that beneficial to us, whereas a strong Cavalry Army would be. Our first Army produced in Kuhkaff will be a long way off, especially if the President keeps ignoring the Governor's instructions. Now, not only has she ignored the worker action instructions, but she has changed Kuhkaff to growth instead of production as Instructed by the Governor. So, give up the idea of getting an Army soon, unless we use the GL. Which sounds like a good idea now that we can't get him to Kyoto.

 

[Chieftess]

Originally posted by Shaitan
For a golden age to launch via wonder construction you need to have built wonders that include all of the civ special traits. They do not need to be in the same wonder. Newton's would satisfy the scientific requirement but another wonder that is militaristic would also need to be constructed before a golden age was triggered.

And that wonder is Universal Suffrage.

 

[Chieftess]

Originally posted by Cyc
Looks like Eklektikos is right. It seems the road to Kyoto will be a difficult one. NU will NOT be that beneficial to us, whereas a strong Cavalry Army would be. Our first Army produced in Kuhkaff will be a long way off, especially if the President keeps ignoring the Governor's instructions. Now, not only has she ignored the worker action instructions, but she has changed Kuhkaff to growth instead of production as Instructed by the Governor. So, give up the idea of getting an Army soon, unless we use the GL. Which sounds like a good idea now that we can't get him to Kyoto.

Hey, it's only been FOUR TURNS. Besides, I'm getting workers ASAP to Kuhkaff (there's not much you can do in 4 turns with foriegn workers), and I did not see any micromanaging instructions in the turn chat thread. Please put those in clearly. Let's not turn this into a flame war and threadjack the topic. (I'm posting this as a player, not just as a moderator)

 

[Cyc]

I'm posting this as a player too. I left very clear instructions in each t/c instruction thread. I left a picture for you with colors and arrows (I thought you needed it) in The North Province thread. I put 3 links to that picture in the forums. One in your Presidential thread, one in your Worker Action thread, and one somewhere else (can't remember off hand). You ignored the instructions all the while and then contridicted them. How can you misinterpret "Please keep Kuhkaff on max production and minimal growth"? Did you need a picture with colors and arrows for that too?

EDIT: And quit whining about how it's only been four turns. In that four turns, you have started and completed a mine for Riga, and completely moved all the needewd workers on to the hills of Kuhkaff. One of those was supposed to be building road by Columbia.