What will be the remaining civs in Brave New World?

[Morningcalm]

You complain about the length of the Timurid Empire but then suggest Gran Colombia that lasted all of 12 years?

Yes, because it covers territory and culture not previously covered. How many South American civs had the series ever had beyond the Incas? Isn't that why Brazil is so celebrated for its inclusion here (apart from the fact that the series may or may not have many Brazilian fans)?

The Timurids core is a territory that has not be fully represented yet - and no, the Mongols don't count; the Mongols just ran over Central Asia while their main core was in Mongolia and northern China.

Likewise, we have not seen a depiction of any Silk Road culture properly. And no, again, the Mongols don't count for the same reason as above. We are missing an entire region that's crucial to the economic history of the world and the cultural history of the much of Western and Southern Asia. Someone to represent the Silk Road is sorely needed. Are the Timurids the best example of a Silk Road civ? Maybe not. But they're the ones most likely to get in.

I think the Timurids are unique and yes, likelier to get in than other Silk Road civs, but the short-lived, dynastic and unsustainable nature of the Timurid empire (which was succeeded much more capably by the Mughals) makes me think it unworthy...at least for now. We have the Huns. We will soon have the Assyrians. I think we could use the Ashanti or any number of other civs instead, even if the Silk Road has not, in your opinion, been adequately represented (and on that I disagree with you, even though the Silk Road's safety and increase in trade doesn't really show in the Mongol ability).

To clarify on the dynastic/time/culture-already-represented point, I'm against Timurids being included for much the same reason I'm against having the Manchu as a civ in Civ, which is to say, their culture is already represented in some other form (even if in an earlier or later dynasty).

Why not Scythia or Khazars? They are obscure, but very clearly lacking in representation in any way, shape or form, and very clearly important to history. The Timurids' history centered too much on one ruler (and while Gran Colombia is guilty there, at least it covers numerous South American territories not covered in the game). The Scythia and Khazars have many leaders over a longer period of time, and are thus worthier of inclusion.

 

[seasnake]

much rather see the khazars than the Timurids, but I still think we'll be seeing Italy instead.

 

[Tomatekh]

To clarify on the dynastic/time/culture-already-represented point, I'm against Timurids being included for much the same reason I'm against having the Manchu as a civ in Civ, which is to say, their culture is already represented in some other form (even if in an earlier or later dynasty).

But the thing is, the Timurids weren't Persian. The Safavids that conquered them were the ones to re-establish the Aryan/Iranian identity in the area. It's not really correct to see them as a dynasty of Persia.

 

[Morningcalm]

much rather see the khazars than the Timurids, but I still think we'll be seeing Italy instead.

Another European civ? I sincerely hope not. I'd rather have the Timurids than a European civ that definitely is already represented in the game...But yes, Khazars would be awesome. How unique they were! Religiously Jewish Turkic peoples fighting the Byzantine Empire!

But the thing is, the Timurids weren't Persian. The Safavids that conquered them were the ones to re-establish the Aryan/Iranian identity in the area. It's not really correct to see them as a dynasty of Persia.

What about seeing them as a dynasty of Mongols? Or an earlier incarnation of the Mughals?

 

[Tomatekh]

What about seeing them as a dynasty of Mongols? Or an earlier incarnation of the Mughals?

But that's just it, though. Could you in any way say the Mongols represent the same thing as the Mughals? No. The Timurids created an entirely unique culture by combining Chagatai and Persian traditions that made such a transition possible.

 

[Dragonflow]

We're getting into discussions about cultural/historic importance of civs and as we know this is something Firaxis rarely cares about( I'm looking at you Shaka).
The fact still stands that the Timurids are the one of the most famous of the Silk-Road Empires and that due to the expansions focus on trade, they have a chance of being among the last six civs.

 

[PhilBowles]

Yeah, but what would the name of said Timurid UU be? Like a poster above pointed out, even "Naresuan's Elephant" is an odd title for a UU...

They could easily use an otherwise generic unit as a UU - as they did with the Siege Tower or Battering Ram, say.

 

[Morningcalm]

But that's just it, though. Could you in any way say the Mongols represent the same thing as the Mughals? No. The Timurids created an entirely unique culture by combining Chagatai and Persian traditions that made such a transition possible.

A mere combination isn't unique, unless that combination creates something greater than the sum of its parts. It had the weakness of the Huns structurally for much of its time, even during the age of its founder, even if it had some of the greater appreciation for culture of the Persians or Mongols.

Most importantly, the Timurid Empire was a dynasty, rather than a civ. See Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid

We do not include China in Civ as "Han" or "Ming" specifically, nor do we include Arabia as "Abassid" specifically (because their UA also mentions oil, so even if the primary focus was on Arabia's Abassid era, it clearly represents something more). The Timurid Empire, on the other hand, was just ONE dynasty, even if it had features of a "civilization."

Furthermore, we already have enough Persian AND Mongol influence in the game. I'm not saying this should absolutely bar the Timurids, but I do think there are worthier civs out there, and worthier trade civs at that: Portugal, the Mahajapit, and several African empires and kingdoms are all worthier than the Timurids as far as trade is concerned, in my humble opinion.

 

[cybrxkhan]

While the Timurids might not be a worthy trade civ, the Silk Road civ begs representation. The Silk Road is one of THE epitome of trade routes. To say that all of Central Asia is already represented by the Mongols, is like saying Israel is already represented by Assyria and Babylon because those two conquered Israel; or that the Ashanti and Zulus are represented by England because they were conquered by England; and so on.

Yes, again, perhaps the Timurids are not the best example of a Silk Road civ. Other civs such as the Kushans, Uighurs, Gokturks, and the aforementioned Khazars spring to mind. It doesn't matter so much in my opinion, given that unfortunately all these groups - as well as the eastern nomads like the Mongols - are lumped into one group. They're not. Frankly, in my opinion, it's just as bad as how all of Africa was represented by the Zulu before Civ 4 came along and introduced Mali and Ethiopia. How can Mongolia represent the millennium of Silk Road history, with its many cultures, empires, nomadic groups, and so on? At the end of the day for me it's not so much that the Timurids are or aren't worthy - it's that they are the most likely to be included for a Silk Road civ. The Silk Road was arguably one of the most important trade networks in world history (perhaps the only one more important was the Indian maritime trade route, but even that one grew off as a maritime extension of the Silk Road), and the fact that no civ has adequately represented them in any incarnation of the civ series is a pity. As much as I would also like to see other worthy trade civs, like something from Indonesia, I think it's time the Silk Road is in.

And, in fact, we already have a precedent for a "dynasty" civ: the Ottomans.


Lastly, though, importance and whether a civ is "deserving" means nothing to Firaxis, as Art Grin said (not to mention whether a civ is or isn't "deserving" is pretty debatable anyways, as this discussing here shows). Otherwise we wouldn't have the Zulus, Polynesians, and so on. We may want to see some of these civs, but this thread is for speculation rather than pure wishing, unfortunately. The only reason why man of us are bringing up the Timurids and the Silk Road is because of the Sofia CS 'theory' - the appearance of Sofia as a militaristic city state means that one of the previous militaristic city states have been upgraded to a full civ, most likely Budapest-Hungary, Hanoi-Vietnam, or Almaty. If Almaty was the one being upgraded to a full civ, there needs to be a Silk Road civ that held Almaty, and the Timurids are the likeliest candidate for that

 

[Gucumatz]

The thing is I am afraid we will have too many warmonger civs that it will leave the Timurids out by all odds (and they would be a darkhorse imo anyways).

We have Assyria, probably getting the Zulu, I am guessing a warmongerish interpretation of a native civilization in the continental US. That's 3 right there and I doubt they will include too many "all out" warmongers. Last expansion we had Sweden and the Huns. Outside of that the rest couldn't really have been considered all out warmongers

 

[steveg700]

The Timurid Empire is pretty much defined by one vile man. After his passing, the civilization went into a sharp downward spiral and accomplished nothing until its eventual collapse. More of a cult of personality than a culture. In those respects they're reminiscent of the Zulu, who I think we can agree trumps the Timurids in the prestige department.

I like'em better, and I have a pretty unique idea for them, but I don't think we'll be seeing them this expansion.

 

[cybrxkhan]

The thing is I am afraid we will have too many warmonger civs that it will leave the Timurids out by all odds (and they would be a darkhorse imo anyways).

We have Assyria, probably getting the Zulu, I am guessing a warmongerish interpretation of a native civilization in the continental US. That's 3 right there and I doubt they will include too many "all out" warmongers. Last expansion we had Sweden and the Huns. Outside of that the rest couldn't really have been considered all out warmongers

However, we don't have a money-focused warmonger. The Timurids could be the mercantile/commerce equivalent to Assyria's science - a very dangerous combo indeed, if the Timurids can buy their way to world domination and pay for their large armies.

That said, whether the Timurids are or aren't deserving, my speculation on their inclusion rests solely on the Sofia CS theory - as many of us know, whether a civ deserves to be in doesn't matter too much, but at least the Sofia CS theory is something much more concrete. (Though I still put Vietnam's chances based on the Sofia CS theory a bit higher than the Timurids - but not too much; the Silk Road just SCREAMS international trade routes that are a focus of BNW)

 

[Guandao]

The thing is I am afraid we will have too many warmonger civs that it will leave the Timurids out by all odds (and they would be a darkhorse imo anyways).

We have Assyria, probably getting the Zulu, I am guessing a warmongerish interpretation of a native civilization in the continental US. That's 3 right there and I doubt they will include too many "all out" warmongers. Last expansion we had Sweden and the Huns. Outside of that the rest couldn't really have been considered all out warmongers

Does Dido count as a warmonger?

I wonder what language Timur would speak in the game. Persian? Arabic? or a Turkic language?

 

[Gucumatz]

Does Dido count as a warmonger?

I wonder what language Timur would speak in the game. Persian? Arabic? or a Turkic language?

Ha fair enough, Ms. Backstab slipped my mind for a second.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Does Dido count as a warmonger?

I wonder what language Timur would speak in the game. Persian? Arabic? or a Turkic language?

He'd probably speak some form of Persian. Ideally he should be speaking the (now extinct?) Chagatai language, but he'd probably be speaking modern Persian if he's in (or maybe Tajik - I'm not sure whether modern Persian (commonly known as Farsi) or Tajik would be better)); all this given that the Timurids - like many of the Turkic dynasties, including, yes, them Ottomans - were heavily influenced if not partially or almost entirely assimilated into Persian culture, and I believe Persian was used as a court language among many of these groups, particularly those in Central Asia.

 

[steveg700]

Most importantly, the Timurid Empire was a dynasty, rather than a civ. See Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid

We do not include China in Civ as "Han" or "Ming" specifically, nor do we include Arabia as "Abassid" specifically (because their UA also mentions oil, so even if the primary focus was on Arabia's Abassid era, it clearly represents something more). The Timurid Empire, on the other hand, was just ONE dynasty, even if it had features of a "civilization."

The only hard-and-fast rule in Firaxis' selection of civ's is that there are no hard-and-fast rules. You can have an amalgamated blob civ spanning multiple eras, or you can have a snapshot civ that frames a dynasty--or a single ruler's life. That's why we'll probably have Zulu rather than Bantu or South Africa or what have you.

 

[steveg700]

Does Dido count as a warmonger?

I wonder what language Timur would speak in the game. Persian? Arabic? or a Turkic language?

Dido actually has a nice early rush setup.

Tamerlane spoke a few languages: Mongolian, Persian, and Turkish.

 

[PhilBowles]

However, we don't have a money-focused warmonger.

How would you describe the Songhai? They have a UA that rewards warmongering (with money), a temple with no upkeep, and a UU with an ability that facilitates taking cities and so raking in gold. I tend to characterise them as the 'economic domination' civ - capture cities, use the loot to buy an army, which captures more cities...

 

[Securion]

How would you describe the Songhai? They have a UA that rewards warmongering (with money), a temple with no upkeep, and a UU with an ability that facilitates taking cities and so raking in gold. I tend to characterise them as the 'economic domination' civ - capture cities, use the loot to buy an army, which captures more cities...

Persian golden ages with combat and movement bonuses, Chinas papermaker and warmonger UA combination...

 

[cybrxkhan]

How would you describe the Songhai? They have a UA that rewards warmongering (with money), a temple with no upkeep, and a UU with an ability that facilitates taking cities and so raking in gold. I tend to characterise them as the 'economic domination' civ - capture cities, use the loot to buy an army, which captures more cities...

Hmm. Good point, I forgot about the Songhai.

Maybe... a trade route warmonger? I dunno. There doesn't need to be just one economic warmonger.