What's a Born Again Christian?

[MobBoss]

In strict Christianity, there is no onus to forgive someone unless they ask for forgiveness. It's a bit rude to not apologise and seek forgiveness of your fellow man, since it deprives them the opportunity to forgive you.

Well, thats not necessarily true either El_M. We are supposed to forgive those that trespass against us even if they dont ask for it. Unforgiveness is a sin and a heavy yoke to bear.

 

[MobBoss]

But yet, dont you trust the mercy of God and Jesus's fondness and kindness towards children? Because no mortal man can judge weather an individual goes to heaven or hell.

I think we agree on this part.

I do hope you understand as well as respect that some denominations (Especially the ones who identify themselves as capital "C" catholics) such as Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox tradition view Baptism as a Sacrament and a necessity for salvation, not a symbol.

Respect? Sure. Think they are right? Nope.

You never ceace to make me laugh with Fundamentalist exclusion . Makes me glad that I am a Catholic who sees that regardless of one's faith that non-Christians (including Gandhi and the Dali Lama) would have a chance to go to heaven. Once again, who died and made you God?

Again, the bible is quite clear on this and there is no 'wiggle room' per se. No one gets into heaven unless it is through Jesus. He is the way and the door and the light. Unless Ghandi and the Dali Lama experienced some death bed conversion they are going to be in the same place all the other non-christians that denied Jesus are. And it really makes me laugh to see you think otherwise.

No mortal man has the capacity to judge who is going to heaven or hell.

Correct. But God gave me eyes and a brain to read and understand his word in the bible. I didnt say it.....Jesus did.

Its not my place to judge who is going to heaven or hell much like it is not your place to judge who is going to heaven or hell.

Correct. Its up to Jesus, not us. However, he did give us some insight on his selection process. You want to ignore that? /oh well.

 

[Mauer]

I said that "They would have a chance", Did I specificly state that they are going to heaven or hell? No. I simply stated that I firmly believe that if they lived a good and holy life that they would have a chance to go to heaven. I did not judged anyone. If you dont believe me, look at these statements:

"Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith" - Pope Benedict XVI

"Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour" - Pope John Paul II

"Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life." - Pope Paul VI

All of these statements from the present pope to the past popes gave me a rough belief that even non-Christians would be able to have a chance for salvation.

When the Pope, a mere man of whom I do not accept as the official interpreter of the faith, has views or opinions that do not line up with the bible (again, God's very word) then your quotes mean nothing to me but false teachings.

 

[CurtSibling]

What's a Born Again Christian?

A person so wracked with guilt or failure that they feel the have to reboot their lives with adopted religious fervour.

Each to their own...Some people find solace in contrived faith, some do not.

.

 

[GenMarshall]

When the Pope, a mere man of whom I do not accept as the official interpreter of the faith, has views or opinions that do not line up with the bible (again, God's very word) then your quotes mean nothing to me but false teachings.

Well I don't know what to say except that felt offended that you said that I am a judger when infact I am not (and explained it in my previous)

Again, the bible is quite clear on this and there is no 'wiggle room' per se. No one gets into heaven unless it is through Jesus. He is the way and the door and the light. Unless Ghandi and the Dali Lama experienced some death bed conversion they are going to be in the same place all the other non-christians that denied Jesus are. And it really makes me laugh to see you think otherwise.

At least I am not a cold hearted bigot who believes all non-Christians are going to hell . I believe that if a person is good regardless if its through Jesus or not, that the person would have a chance to obtain heaven. I believe that all paths lead to God whether you're a Christian or a Zoroastrian. I just believe that Catholicism contains the fullness of the truth.

I do appreicate it that you also respect my beliefs in regards to non-Christians and salvation. I just hope you can sleep well knowing that your God condemned non-Christians to hell which also includes our older brothers the Jews . Sorry, but I rather be an open minded Christian who is religiously tolerant than to be a cold hearted Christian who isint.

 

[Markus6]

Gods priorities are not straight. Why should a criminal who lived by raping, murdering and stealing go to heaven if he beileves in christ when a good man who lived a holy life go to hell for just not beileving in christ?

Believing in Jesus isn't the only requirement for salvation. Demons believe in Jesus and believe he was the son of God in the New Testament, that doesn't get them into heaven. You have to realise God's way of living is the best way, apologise for not living his way and try to live that way in the future. The criminal could go to heaven but only if he repented and tried to live a good life from then on.

A good man who lived a holy life could get into heaven without believing in Jesus but Christians believe there has only ever been one good man who led a holy life. It all depends how you define 'good' and 'holy', where do you draw the line?

On topic: being born again is a metaphor for spiritual stuff that goes on at conversion. Unfortunately plenty of people have turned into a title so instead of 'Christians' they are 'born-again Christians' which somehow makes them better.

 

[Chieftess]

Technically, the term means someone who's been baptised as a Christian. So, all Christians are technically "born again". Although, most denominations would use "Baptised" instead of "born again".

However, certain denominations (like Southern Baptists, most famously) take it to imply some personal spiritual event that led a person (usually a teenager) to want to be baptised (by immersion in water usually).

A Baptist will consider themselves Christian, even though they haven't yet been baptised - remember, they do wait until they're about 12-15 before deciding. Once they're baptised, they call themselves "Born Again". When they ask you if you've been "born again", they want to hear of your experience. For example, someone might say, "I was at a revival, and during a group song, we were all crying. It was great! So, I went and was born again!".

At least I am not a cold hearted bigot who believes all non-Christians are going to hell . I believe that if a person is good regardless if its through Jesus or not, that the person would have a chance to obtain heaven. I believe that all paths lead to God whether you're a Christian or a Zoroastrian. I just believe that Catholicism contains the fullness of the truth.

You're almost there. It's if the person has not commited any mortal sin, and has realized that there's some higher "force" at work based on what they see in nature. For example, Native Americans have a concept of God in what they call "The Great Wind". Provided that there people didn't worship plants, animals, etc., and did not commit a mortal sin, then they would have a chance. They might not get to Heaven right away (purgatory), but besides that, I don't think we know much (other than what's said in the Catholic catacism (sp)).

 

[Mauer]

Well I don't know what to say except that felt offended that you said that I am a judger when infact I am not (and explained it in my previous)

Sorry, didn't mean for it to sound like I was calling you one. Looking back though, I don't see anything that would be able to be taken that way. None the less, I apologize.

At least I am not a cold hearted bigot who believes all non-Christians are going to hell .

Eh, I'm thinking about striking my last comment. I guess Jesus was a cold hearted bigot when He clearly stated what Mob is only pointing out what He said.
Unless you are kidding of course.

EDIT: @Chieftess- Although I try to stay away from categorizing myself to a particular denomination, I have attended a Southern baptist church for the last 5 years. "Born again" has nothing to do with baptism. Baptism is an outward expression of an inner faith. Born again is being born of His spirit. That is, being spiritually dead, we are given new life in Him as He places His very own Spirit in us.

 

[MobBoss]

At least I am not a cold hearted bigot who believes all non-Christians are going to hell .

Excuse me? Look, either debate me on the merits of the situation...i.e. what the bible says or doesnt say. There is no need for such language here.

I believe that if a person is good regardless if its through Jesus or not, that the person would have a chance to obtain heaven. I believe that all paths lead to God whether you're a Christian or a Zoroastrian. I just believe that Catholicism contains the fullness of the truth.

Ok, fine. What is your biblical scripture to back this up? Preferably Christs own words if you can.

I do appreicate it that you also respect my beliefs in regards to non-Christians and salvation. I just hope you can sleep well knowing that your God condemned non-Christians to hell which also includes our older brothers the Jews .

Those that dont accept Jesus as the messiah, as the fullfillment of prophecy and their own law, will have to be judged for that. To be a christian is to hold that view.

Sorry, but I rather be an open minded Christian who is religiously tolerant than to be a cold hearted Christian who isint.

Whats tolerance have to do with any of this? I can hold the view that people not believing in Christ go to hell and still be tolerant of them. Who are you to label me...judge me....as cold hearted because I follow Jesus exact words....???? Perhaps you should be the one more open minded and read the bible and consider what Jesus said about unbelievers. Then, and maybe then, you will get some wisdom concerning the issue.

 

[Chieftess]

Sorry, didn't mean for it to sound like I was calling you one. Looking back though, I don't see anything that would be able to be taken that way. None the less, I apologize.



Eh, I'm thinking about striking my last comment. I guess Jesus was a cold hearted bigot when He clearly stated what Mob is only pointing out what He said.
Unless you are kidding of course.

EDIT: @Chieftess- Although I try to stay away from categorizing myself to a particular denomination, I have attended a Southern baptist church for the last 5 years. "Born again" has nothing to do with baptism. Baptism is an outward expression of an inner faith. Born again is being born of His spirit. That is, being spiritually dead, we are given new life in Him as He places His very own Spirit in us.

I was using the term based on what I heard of it from a teen's camp (religious themed) that I went to. I was the only Lutheran out of all Baptists, and that's what they talked about. So, I always thought it was one and the same.

 

[El_Machinae]

Technically, the term means someone who's been baptised as a Christian. So, all Christians are technically "born again".

Yeah, someone should have said that earlier, if no one did. A Christian considers all Christians to be 'born again'.

That's pretty broad and in general Have there been alot of "Christians" that have done something to you? Or just a few? Or is this just a blanket statement? (no sarcasm or anything, serious question)

You were replying to my statement about the need for the 'born again' version to repent to others of their sins.

You can answer the question, too, then (since only Mr. Agent has touched it so far (from an EV perspective, thanks CivG). Is there an onus to confess your sins to your victims, or only to God? Is there an onus to seek forgiveness from those you've hurt, or only God? Like I said, not many 'born again' (self-professed) seem to see a need to get forgiveness from the people who they have injured through their sins - only from God.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, thats not necessarily true either El_M. We are supposed to forgive those that trespass against us even if they dont ask for it. Unforgiveness is a sin and a heavy yoke to bear.

Oh, don't mistake me, many Christians forgive others without forgiveness being sought (I consider it to be a virtue) - but, the Christian god does not do so, and Jesus doesn't demand it (I don't have time to dig around, but look in the part where the "seven times seventy" pops up - you know where I mean - Jesus tells them to forgive after forgiveness is sought).

 

[Mauer]

Again the "Not many 'born again' seem to see the need..." Just wonder if you're polling, your own experience, or if it's a presupposition. I'd say since we're called to be peacemakers, and to be at peace with all men (on good standings, not like some monk like figure) then I would definitely need to seek forgiveness from the person I wronged. I think a general incorrect perception is that Christians are these special beings that are supposed to do no wrong. I, along with all other Christians, am still in the flesh. As such, I will still submit to the flesh at times, and even often until I put on incorruption.

 

[MobBoss]

Oh, don't mistake me, many Christians forgive others without forgiveness being sought (I consider it to be a virtue) - but, the Christian god does not do so, and Jesus doesn't demand it (I don't have time to dig around, but look in the part where the "seven times seventy" pops up - you know where I mean - Jesus tells them to forgive after forgiveness is sought).

No, the seventy times seven is a reference to how often we should forgive those that continually transgress against us.

Oh, and Jesus most certainly does refer to it. Here are some prime examples:

Matthew 6:14

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 18:21

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Mark 11:25

25 “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses

John 20:22-24 (New King James Version)

22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

 

[punkbass2000]

Yeah, someone should have said that earlier, if no one did. A Christian considers all Christians to be 'born again'.

I did, actually. Back on the first page.

 

[GenMarshall]

Unless you are kidding of course.

The "" does indicate that I am eather kidding or being sarcastic .

Ok, fine. What is your biblical scripture to back this up? Preferably Christs own words if you can.

I dont rely on biblical scripture on this, I rely on what I believe is right.

Those that dont accept Jesus as the messiah, as the fullfillment of prophecy and their own law, will have to be judged for that. To be a christian is to hold that view.

But it does not mean that modern Jews should be held acountable for that.

Whats tolerance have to do with any of this? I can hold the view that people not believing in Christ go to hell and still be tolerant of them.

Sorry, but my own moral compass does not sit right in believing that people that dont believe in Christ should end up in eternal torment in hell. Perhaps cleansed of their sins through purgitory in Catholic theology. But ultamately I believe that non-Christian do have a chance at salvation.

Perhaps you should be the one more open minded and read the bible and consider what Jesus said about unbelievers. Then, and maybe then, you will get some wisdom concerning the issue.

Look who is telling someone to have an open mind . Sorry, but I do have an open mind as well as the ability to think for myself .

 

[MobBoss]

I dont rely on biblical scripture on this, I rely on what I believe is right.

Then I humbly submit that you are out of order in your thinking on this with how Jesus does. Again, I suggest you put emotion out of it and seek wisdom by reading Jesus own words instead of some knee-jerk reaction.

But it does not mean that modern Jews should be held acountable for that.

Of course it does.

Sorry, but my own moral compass does not sit right in believing that people that dont believe in Christ should end up in eternal torment in hell.

Do you think God cares about your own moral compass or with what he expects of us? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Perhaps cleansed of their sins through purgitory in Catholic theology. But ultamately I believe that non-Christian do have a chance at salvation.

Well, since I do not see any biblical affirmation of that belief, I will simply have to disagree with you and once more stick with Jesus.

 

[bhsup]

Just to stick my nose in here. MobBoss and I feel basically the same way about this. It is what the Bible says. However, I just can never bring myself to actually say "that person is going to hell" regardless of their beliefs simply because I think only God truly knows the heart of a man (or woman!).

 

[MobBoss]

Just to stick my nose in here. MobBoss and I feel basically the same way about this. It is what the Bible says. However, I just can never bring myself to actually say "that person is going to hell" regardless of their beliefs simply because I think only God truly knows the heart of a man (or woman!).

Yeah, well, your a nice guy. Me...I never had a problem pointing out the turd at the tea party. It is what it is, and I fail to see any need to beat around the bush in regards to it.

 

[Xanikk999]

Yeah, well, your a nice guy. Me...I never had a problem pointing out the turd at the tea party. It is what it is, and I fail to see any need to beat around the bush in regards to it.

So let me get this straight mobboss....

If you see someone say they are not christian you tell them they are going to hell....



Dude that is just rude.