What's so good about religions?

[Ramesses-Rules]

I used to play a lot of Civ 4 vanilla in the old days but switched directly to BtS when it came out, never played Warlords. Taking advantage of my complete edition I now rolled up a Warlords game with Rams to see the differences. Eh... founding an early religion reliably on the higher levels is out anyway as you start with Agriculture / the Wheel as in BtS. Unless you handpick opponents...
As for the economy this starting tech combo is the best you can get IMO.

Well, if you played only a couple games as Ramesses in Warlords, my sample size is about 1,000 times larger than yours! I always play against random opponents. There are a couple reliable ways to get early religion. Build Oracle and choose COL as your religion. That works nearly every time. If you have Horses, you go straight from AH to Polytheism as your second tech, and you will found Hinduism more often than you might think. I always take a shot at that if I have Marble in my first two cities, since I can build Parthenon as compensation for missing Hinduism.

I am a loyal follower of TMIT, so I have struggled through many games ignoring early religion and waiting for 1,000 AD for it to spread to me. I am NEVER competitive with AI in those games. If anybody can do it in Warlords at Immortal level without getting a lucky map where an early Chariot rush is possible, please let me know the secret.

 

[UnforcedError]

Well, if you played only a couple games as Ramesses in Warlords, my sample size is about 1,000 times larger than yours! I always play against random opponents. There are a couple reliable ways to get early religion. Build Oracle and choose COL as your religion. That works nearly every time. If you have Horses, you go straight from AH to Polytheism as your second tech, and you will found Hinduism more often than you might think. I always take a shot at that if I have Marble in my first two cities, since I can build Parthenon as compensation for missing Hinduism.

I am a loyal follower of TMIT, so I have struggled through many games ignoring early religion and waiting for 1,000 AD for it to spread to me. I am NEVER competitive with AI in those games. If anybody can do it in Warlords at Immortal level without getting a lucky map where an early Chariot rush is possible, please let me know the secret.

I actually had the impression you mentioned Poly and Mono as your favourite two religions... Sure, getting CoL via Oracle is fine if you want to specialize on culture victories.

In fact I have no intention to play Warlords as BtS is far better. But war chariots are my second favourite rush units right after quechuas on IMM / Deity (only second favourite because they require horses, and you can get unlucky sometimes). The lower happy cap might be a pain, but why not get an early HR?

 

[Yudishtira]

I am a loyal follower of TMIT, so I have struggled through many games ignoring early religion and waiting for 1,000 AD for it to spread to me. I am NEVER competitive with AI in those games.

It seems to me that you are an early adopter of TMITism. In this case, I'm afraid there is nothing that any (other) religion (or Deity) can do for you...

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

It seems to me that you are an early adopter of TMITism. In this case, I'm afraid there is nothing that any (other) religion (or Deity) can do for you...

I have learned a ton from TMIT games and forum posts. However, based on experience, I find it very hard to be competitive in Warlords at Immortal level without early religion. Maybe that just proves I am not sufficiently skilled at it, but I'd still like to hear from somebody who has done it without having a map that enables a successful early rush. Those are the only two ways I have won my Immortal games so far. Believe me, I have beaten my head against the wall in countless games trying to do it without either early religion or early rush.

I am playing an Island game now and founded Christianity by building Stonehenge, save the G Prophet it yields, then get a second G Prophet (run Prophets in Thebes to increase probability of getting GP). Then bulbed Monotheism and Theology on same turn with the two Great Prophets. You found Christianity and switch to OR immediately. I don't remember ever doing that before, but it works.

 

[calibur]

I have learned a ton from TMIT games and forum posts. However, based on experience, I find it very hard to be competitive in Warlords at Immortal level without early religion. Maybe that just proves I am not sufficiently skilled at it, but I'd still like to hear from somebody who has done it without having a map that enables a successful early rush. Those are the only two ways I have won my Immortal games so far. Believe me, I have beaten my head against the wall in countless games trying to do it without either early religion or early rush.

I am playing an Island game now and founded Christianity by building Stonehenge, save the G Prophet it yields, then get a second G Prophet (run Prophets in Thebes to increase probability of getting GP). Then bulbed Monotheism and Theology on same turn with the two Great Prophets. You found Christianity and switch to OR immediately. I don't remember ever doing that before, but it works.

Why not just bulb Judy and build a shrine? Or get CoL?

 

[reddishrecue]

Religions can be mixed with the religious civics and help cause happiness research and wonder bonuses in so many ways.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Why not just bulb Judy and build a shrine? Or get CoL?

Judy was already gone by the time I got my first GP, and I had opted not to do the Oracle>COL play in this game. I am just pointing out a third way to get an early religion as Ramesses.

What is the optimal tech sequence to bulb Philosophy and found Taoism? Does anybody know? I want to try that next. Thanks.

 

[Alchemind]

Enginseer ... *face palm*


Read the Civopedia ... The benefits are described in plain English. I'm not sure whats up with you and making these threads that you make.

 

[Manco Capac]

I find it very hard to be competitive in Warlords at Immortal level without early religion.

I can say props for playing IMM on Warlords. Yes, it is harder beast compared to BTS IMM. I've tried my first IMM on warlords ever (WOTM48 IIRC) and yes, the AI behaves differently. But there are also exploits that do not exist anymore like the calvary "rush", which is absurdly strong. Indeed, it is based on rush, but I've heard from IMM+, rushing is starting to be the most advisable. Especially on Warlords deity where winning peacefully is hard as hell.

EDIT: On warlords, it is really hard to resist any type of rush because of two reasons:

1) The AI's don't do emergency unit whips.
2) Siege is simply overpowered.

The gains are too big to hold for a long time any rush/war.

 

[AdamCrock]

I can say props for playing IMM on Warlords. Yes, it is harder beast compared to BTS IMM. I've tried my first IMM on warlords ever (WOTM48 IIRC) and yes, the AI behaves differently. But there are also exploits that do not exist anymore like the calvary "rush", which is absurdly strong. Indeed, it is based on rush, but I've heard from IMM+, rushing is starting to be the most advisable. Especially on Warlords deity where winning peacefully is hard as hell.

EDIT: On warlords, it is really hard to resist any type of rush because of two reasons:

1) The AI's don't do emergency unit whips.
2) Siege is simply overpowered.

The gains are too big to hold for a long time any rush/war.

Sadly I cannot agree more ! The imm+deity is just like :war,war,war and some more war ! If you plan to b peacfull just forget about war

 

[kenwyn]

Don't know what level U all are playing at, but if Monarch or above, it's almost mandatory to have some religion for the happiness.

It also broadens your city culture slowly but surely... all game long, since it never stops working.

Plus I luv the cashflow a shrine (or 2) provides = free money (just ask the Vatican).

Also, i havn't read here about the intelligence spreading YOUR religion provides. VERY important in later part of game when your religion has been in THEIR city for several centuries. Knowledge is power, rite?

 

[damerell]

Plus I luv the cashflow a shrine (or 2) provides = free money (just ask the Vatican).

Sure, but not to reprise the entire thread, that doesn't mean someone else can't do the heavy lifting of founding the religion, using up the GP for the shrine, and sending out all the missionaries - while you spend the same amount of effort on military techs and units, then steal the shrine. This is a better plan because if it doesn't all go according to the script you've still got a pile of military rather than having the shrine stolen from you.

 

[alex15]

Religion bringing not only good things but also bad, in Civ4 civilizations with different state religions usually hate each other.

 

[ZeekLTK]

I had an interesting thing happen in the game I'm playing. Both of the two earliest religions (Hindu and Buddhist) were practically skipped completely, and everyone converted to either Jewish or Confusionism instead.

It's an 18 civ game too! Spain initially adopted Buddism, but then someone started passing around Judaism and even Spain converted. Nearly everyone in the game had converted to that until Egypt got Confusionism and passed that to a couple of their neighbors. So now there are 12 Jewish civs, about 4-5 Confusionism, and 1-2 with still no religion.


What's weird, I was one of the first 5 to convert to Judaism, and Spain (my neighbor) was still Buddhist for a while, so she started hating me. But then she converted to my religion... and then a few turns later declared war on me. What? Does the "you have fallen under sway of a heathen religion" stay for a while even though it no longer appears in the "box"? I wasn't getting any negative points for it any more (instead, I was getting "we care for our brothers of the faith") but she still declared on me. This was in BC too, so there wasn't much else to be mad about.

 

[lymond]

What's weird, I was one of the first 5 to convert to Judaism, and Spain (my neighbor) was still Buddhist for a while, so she started hating me. But then she converted to my religion... and then a few turns later declared war on me. What? Does the "you have fallen under sway of a heathen religion" stay for a while even though it no longer appears in the "box"? I wasn't getting any negative points for it any more (instead, I was getting "we care for our brothers of the faith") but she still declared on me. This was in BC too, so there wasn't much else to be mad about.

Whether an AI is in the same religion as you is irrelevant to whether they will declare war on you. What is relevant is their "attitude" towards you (Furious, Angry, Cautious, Pleased, and Friendly). Religion may have an influence on how fast that attitude improves depending on the Leader...for Izzy it is usually pretty fast.

However, their is a deeper aspect to attitudes and DOWs. First, some Leaders are different from other leaders as to whether they will DOW at a certain attitude. Some AIs will never DOW you at Pleased+ (e.g. Boudica). Quite a few AIs have the possibility to DOW you at "Pleased". Some of these leaders are obviousl (Monty, Rags). Some not so obvious (yes, Mansa can DOW at pleased). Izzy can DOW at Pleased. This is further broken down by probabilities. Monty can DOW at Pleased and happy go lucky Mansa can too, but Monty has a much much higher probability of doing so.

Another important thing about DOWs is when the AI went into fist mode (WHEOOHRN), targeting you.. For instance, I mentioned Boudica cannot DOW at Pleased. Actually, what is really true here is Boudi cannot "plot war" at Pleased. However, if she went into fist mode prior to reaching "Pleased" with you, and you were the target, she can still DOW you even at Pleased.

Most AIs cannot "plot war" at Friendly..although as mentioned just above, some can "plot" prior to reaching Friendly and then DOW you. The big wildcard is Cathy - she can DOW you at Friendly even if not plotting...for instance, a bribe.

I recommend reading the following article to learn more about the Leaders and their propensity to do or not do something:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=478563

The ultimate point here is that don't think you are safe just because you share a religion with someone. Each leader in the game is different, so understand what those differences are as well as the mechanics of "plotting wars" and DOWs. It's even more complex than I mentioned above.


(it is very odd for Spain to adopt a religion that she did not found...at least voluntarily)