What's the problem with Islam, anyway?

Right, coool. I challenge you to find a single country that doesn't have domestic oil of some sort.

here you go.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_res-energy-oil-reserves
and if that doesn't convince you: Vatican City ;)

Anyway, do you claim that Middle East is not richer in oil than other regions? hm?

Lets see, out of 20 biggest producers, 11 are majorly muslim (7 are in the Middle East, 2 in Maghreb)

of course, reliance on oil only isn't good for these states. But if not oil, most Gulf states would have nothing. Thanks to oil, they can invest the gained money to progress in another sectors of economy. If they are not doing that, it's because of folly of their own gouverments.

Saudi Arabia became a major producer without being a colony

and? Still, these were Americans who were producing oil, and "western opressors" who were buying it.

and Malaysia only became one after independence.

that's a good point (although I was talking about Middle East, and Malaysia isn't part of it), but who was buying oil from them? Even if it was to be Japan, Korea and Taiwan, it wouldn't progress without the horrible western imperialism.

Well, sure, colonialism and imperialism had some advantages. Java got a nice road network. Sure, it was built using corvee labour and the East Indies were maintained using all the controls of a police state but that's fine. I guess... But I don't see how the point flows from one to the other. An oil derrick is great but only if it offers tangible benefits to those whom were colonised. The same goals for rail. It might have some ancillary benefits for passengers but that was usually secondary to its ability to further facilitate exports.

the colonialism passed, and the infrastructure (roads, bridges, mines, hospitals, schools, whatever) stayed. That's my point. Anyway, every conquest is about exploitation and I don't see why we should think that XIX century Europe was any different, that they were worse than usual conquerers. I believe they were in many ways better, because, apart from the usual opression, which happens with every conquest, they shifted many areas to a higher economic level. They were doing it in their own interest, of course, but the conquered lands profited somewhat.

I'm not sure I believe that. Length is not a necessary prerequisite for wrecking stuff. The Soviet Union did a fairly good number on Poland. It wasn't wholly exploitative but the limitations forced on the Polish economy through the systems both economic and political it forced on you didn't help.

That's true to some extent, but we still progressed during communism, perhaps the progress could have been quicker. Also, SU didn't invest money in Poland, as colonial states did in their colonies. It wasn't on higher economical level than Poland, as colonial state in comparison to their colonies.
 
Yes, that is Islam. If Islam is so varied, then where are the flourishing Islamic democracies?

Indonesia? Bangladesh? Pakistan between military coups? Turkey?

By the way, between them they probably account for 1/3 of all Muslim population.

Somaliland last I checked is a democracy. As are Mali, and Lebanon, and several West African countries. Malaysia, Algeria, Tunisia, Azerbaijan etc are also democracies though highly flawed and tending towards authoritarianism. Jordan, Bahrain, et al are semi-constitutional monarchies with parliaments.

Even autocracies like Egypt and Iran pretends to be democracies. There's a reason; being democratic is something which people aspire to. Rulers can longer merely claim divine right or heavily-armed right to rule anymore. Shows a lot about Islamic authoritarian tendencies.

Human rights violations - consistent across most of the Islamic World

Consistent? As in, the same degree? I'd like to see prove of this; oh wait, you can't.

Scientific output - crushingly low across the Islamic World

That [citation needed] tag is still there.

There are consistencies between many Islamic countries - I already pointed out the human rights violations, low scientific output, lack of industry and limits on individual freedom.

Except you haven't. You haven't shown me anything. Granted, you've shown me a woman being buried for stoning and a child execution in Iran. Is Iran representative of a part of the Islamic world? Of course. The entire Islamic world? Hardly. Is Iranian state policy representive of Islam as a whole? Not really.

Point out the cases. Compare them. Show how they're consistent throughout the Islamic world. Show me how Islam is directly responsible for them and not, say, a repressive political system or historical factors or economic factors. Give me examples. But you didn't. All you have are those blanket statements. It's not enough.
 
This isn't about stoining in particular, it is about the Koran prescribing death for certain offenses. All abrahamic religions condone capital punishment. Therefore, the problem is not with Islam, it is with all Abrahamic religions.

Singling out Islam for being "evil" cannot be done without also implicating all other Abrahamic religions. If Islam is evil, so is Christianity and Judaism.

On a side note, the US President Obama was on tv earlier (even here in Canada) and I think he summed it up best when he said "A religion did not attack us". He also stated that you should not "hide behind a wall of suspicion". The US was built on the backs of tolerance and freedom (even religious freedom, oh my!). Something people such as Ayn Rand seem to have forgotten.


For me at least it was about the stoning of women, because a capital punishment (very painful at that) for adulterious woman is something much more outrageous for me than a capital punishment for, let say, serial killer.
Also, as I've mentioned, your quote does not convince me. I don't see how stoning this women would break roman law, that's one. Also, it is clear for me is that his message is that we, as sinful people, should not cast a final judgement over another human.
The sword of St Paul - the example is silly. Sword is often used as a symbol of power, of compulsion, and it does not imply capital punishment. if it wasn't so, popes wouldn't be speaking about "two swords", the spiritual sword held by the church, as the church courts were forbidden to cast capital punishment (if they wanted somebody to die, they had to give him to secular authorities). That itself shows that the church's attitude towards capital punishment was ambivalent, but it also means that the "spiritual sword" couldn't mean ability to cast capital punishment.

Anyway, today the RCC is clearly against the capital penalty in any form.
 
Yes, that is Islam. If Islam is so varied, then where are the flourishing Islamic democracies?

Um.... Turkey? :crazyeye:

Why can I count one dictatorship after another when I look at the Islamic World, but struggle to find major democracies?

See above.

Human rights violations - consistent across most of the Islamic World
Scientific output - crushingly low across the Islamic World

Having recently escaped from an oppressive and sprawling dictatorship and then been subjected to incompetent and corupt governments since is a far more likely cause that their religion. Scientific advancement during the European "dark ages" as mentioned by another poster illustrates this.

You claim variety - the facts repeatedly state the same picture.

Well pretty much the whole Arab world had the same problem. Iran is pretty much the only exception and I think it's fair to say that they have a fairly advanced society. Shame about their leaders, of course... Every single Iranian person I've met deplores their government.

The majority of muslims are under the command of these States. You are too naive about ideology and the role it plays in the State and, by extension, the real actions of a people through State actors rather than just the intentions of individuals in their private lives.

What sort of nonsense is this?? No Islamic state has threatened (physically, that is) any western country save for Iran, and that is more for nationalistic domestic reasons (Iran is a democracy, after all) than for any real desire to conquer the world.

There are consistencies between many Islamic countries - I already pointed out the human rights violations, low scientific output, lack of industry and limits on individual freedom.

All attributable to historic reasons I've mentioned, and not to their religion.

Islam is not all things to all men. Regardless of what you claim, it does have specific moral codes and is not as varied as you say.

Christianity has similar specific moral codes. Not seeing your point.

I'm only portraying the facts. They paint a consistent picture for anyone willing to take an objective look at the real truth.

You're portraying your opinion. It's understandable, as it is shared by much of the United States population. It's a shame that such a fine people can become so blinkered by self-righteous anger after one attack, even one as devastating as 9/11.
 
the problem is not with a "specific moral codes" but that this "specific moral codes" are codified...
 
Muslims have attacked us many times. They attacked The US on 9/11, they held American Civilians hostage in Iran. They have attacked both the US and our allies on many other occasions. I view Muslims as the enemy of the free world. As a Christian I also angered by there persecution of Christians in there lands.
 
Like in Iraq?

I thought Tariq Aziz was like 2nd in command there, despite being Christian.

I view America as an enemy of peace.
 
That is the trouble with fanaticism on either side. You can rationalize anything if you can bring yourself to blame a respected organized religion instead of individuals who pervert it to suit their own agenda.
 
what is too blame let me see........no music:p[i mean what's up with that?they are obviously not talented so they make it unholy to hide their weakness:p
 
well, radical muslims condemn music unless it is without musical instruments (just singing), and, of course, it has to religious.
But to be fair, it is only few people who thinks that, and early christianity was against music as well, and it's grown out of it.
 
Yes, but the Sufi sect is almost entirely based around qawwali music, so I'm not sure that critique really applies.
 
Hmm...none of the Muslims I´ve met have killed homosexuals, beat women or any of that nonsense. Matter of fact, most of them have been women who chose to convert on their own volition.
 
Ayn Rand:
Prove to me Islam is more oppressive Christianity using the text of the Qu'ran as your basis.
Full body burqa: Isn't part of the Qu'ran. In the Qu'ran Mohammad only said that women should be modest. A little modesty in dressing isn't a bad idea.
Besides, if it is a weapon of slavery, than why do independant women in America still wear it? Minneapolis has a fairly large Somali community, and I still see plenty of burqas there. (or is it the nijab? I forget the minor differences.)
Jihad: The only Jihad mentioned in the Qu'ran is the Greater Jihad, or the personal struggle for faith. The armed struggle, the Lesser Jihad, was an invention of one of the Caliphs, Abu Bakr.
Intolerance: Look at Fatimid Egypt, Ummayad Dynasties (Both Damascene and Al-Andalus periods), Ayyubid Egypt, and numerous other Muslim Dynasties across the Middle East during the middle ages.
Furthermore, if Islam is so oppressive and violent, why has the majority of the oppression and violence only really emerged in the last 50 years? In Medieval Persia prior to the Safvids (I forget the ruling dynasty. The Buyids?) women were regularly depicted on ceramics without the burqa and so on.
Anti-Science: Don't we use Arabic numbers in math, and didn't they basicaly formalize Astronomy, Algebra, and Chemistry? And didn't they also translate numerous other classical works and preserve them?
Islam says kill the Infidel: Mohammad called Jews and Christians 'peoples of the book' and they would be allowed to keep their religion.
Anti-Progress: They created massive irragation systems in Mesopotamia and Transoxania until in the case of Mesopotamia the river started silt up, or in Transoxania, they had the little itty-bitty of having the Mongols make pyramids out of their skulls.

Need I go on?
 
Ayn Rand:
Prove to me Islam is more oppressive Christianity using the text of the Qu'ran as your basis.

Hadiths would be much more suitable for this goal.

Full body burqa: Isn't part of the Qu'ran. In the Qu'ran Mohammad only said that women should be modest. A little modesty in dressing isn't a bad idea.

It depends how do you interprete Coran.

the Lesser Jihad, was an invention of one of the Caliphs, Abu Bakr.

Muhammad did engage in fight against unbelievers and forceful conversions already.

Intolerance: Look at Fatimid Egypt, Ummayad Dynasties (Both Damascene and Al-Andalus periods), Ayyubid Egypt, and numerous other Muslim Dynasties across the Middle East during the middle ages.

Muslim tolerance was not anything as great or as unique as some think. Firstly, it was forced by circumstances. If they actually conquered a city by force, they were free to take religious buildings for their own cult, and do with the population as they pleased. If a city capitulated, it was mostly under conditions of religious tolerance. Muslim glory is that they often acted according to the deals they agreed to.
The problem with muslim tolerance is that no-one knows exactly when so-called Umaric Conditions were instituted. Later muslims claimed that it was during the conquest. But modern scholars believe it was a process started by Umar II (early VIII century) and ended in XII-XIII century. The conditions were that no new religious buildings should be built; the old ones could not be repaired; non-muslims should wear special dress, special hairstyle etc; no visible signs of non-muslim worship in public space, blah blah,
in fact there were many other "conditions" added to it by various muslim scholars, sometimes pretty detailed.
So, in fact, the situation of ahl adh-dhimma was not better than the situation of Jews in christian Europe, or at least became so after less than a century of muslim rule. And the conditions seemed to deteriorate with each century. If muslims were more tolerant towards non-muslims than christians, it was mostly at the very beginning of their rule, and I judge it to be result of them not really living in the cities in the early days.
I must add that these Umaric Conditions were not always enforced, but they also weren't always enforced in medieval Europe. The difference I see is that there were actually many christian and jewish state officials before XI century or so, while I'm not sure if this can be said about Jews in Europe, but the reason was that they were inherited from the pre-muslim times, as early Arabs were too primitive to build their own fiscal administration. And the "minorities" were at this time the bulk of population of islamic empire, and also the bulk of educated clerks. Al-Hakim, when he wanted to hire muslim official in the place of christian ones, found that he doesn't have enough muslims for the job. There was always a big pressure to fire those non-muslim officials, and it eventually happened.

You can of course talk about pogroms in Europe, but anti-christian and anti-jewish etc pogroms existed in muslim world as well, and I can provide you with a list of some of the most spectacular, if you like. Fatimids were indeed tolerant, in general, but their reign witnessed not only the rule of Al-Hakim (destruction of every church in the state, including the ones in Jerusalem etc), but even under other caliphs there were pogroms, and they were mostly left unpunished. There was one exception, and in fact it's the only example of muslim authority punishing anti-christian riots I know in muslim history. But the visier that ordered the punishment was christian - and he was killed as soon as the caliph protecting him died. It was also under Fatimids that the special garment rule was finally forced upon christians.

Umayyads? It is also Umar II, who raised taxation with exact intent of converting non-muslims (he was an exception, but in fact he is the only Umayyad caliph who is considered venerable out of the all list, and also for his anti-christian stance), was allegedly the first one to introduce special garments for non-muslims and to try to fire non-muslim officials.

Ayyubids? They actually were the ones who finally succeeded in clearsing the administration of non-muslims.

I must add that Umaric Code is still used today as an excuse to forbid Copts from building new churches in Egypt.

Furthermore, if Islam is so oppressive and violent, why has the majority of the oppression and violence only really emerged in the last 50 years? In Medieval Persia prior to the Safvids (I forget the ruling dynasty. The Buyids?) women were regularly depicted on ceramics without the burqa and so on.

I thought it was mostly in Ilkhanate art, but I'll believe you. But who were the Buyids? half-converts to islam, many of their Daylamites still being zoroastrians.

Islam says kill the Infidel: Mohammad called Jews and Christians 'peoples of the book' and they would be allowed to keep their religion

It is true that Muhammad was mild towards christians, much milder than later rulers, but when it comes to Jews, one should recall the fate of jewish tribes of Medina. Two were expelled, the third one exterminated.
 
Hadiths would be much more suitable for this goal.
But the Hadith wasn't the divine revelation, now was it? My Islamic Theology may be a tad off, but Mohammad wasn't privy to any more divine knowledge than what is in the Qu'ran.

It depends how do you interprete Coran.
Of course it is how you interpret it. I could interpret Christianity as advocating a communist revolution. That doesn't mean the interpreation is right.

Muhammad did engage in fight against unbelievers and forceful conversions already.
The war against Mecca was a defensive one. I don't remember the exact passages but Mohammad repetedly emphasised peace and tolerance once the war was over and the war should be over once the immediate objectives were achieved.

Muslim tolerance was not anything as great or as unique as some think. Firstly, it was forced by circumstances. If they actually conquered a city by force, they were free to take religious buildings for their own cult, and do with the population as they pleased. If a city capitulated, it was mostly under conditions of religious tolerance. Muslim glory is that they often acted according to the deals they agreed to.
If anything, Christianity is a bit worse with regards to appropriating holy buildings.

The problem with muslim tolerance is that no-one knows exactly when so-called Umaric Conditions were instituted. Later muslims claimed that it was during the conquest. But modern scholars believe it was a process started by Umar II (early VIII century) and ended in XII-XIII century. The conditions were that no new religious buildings should be built; the old ones could not be repaired; non-muslims should wear special dress, special hairstyle etc; no visible signs of non-muslim worship in public space, blah blah.
I find most of that a bit odd. Old ones were repaired as I'm almost certain that the Church of the Holy Apostles was repaired during Ottoman rule. Furthermore, the showing of religous symbols outside was not that common as the icons were all on the inside.
Any source?
Lastly, I would like to point out that once again Umar was not privy to any divine revalations. His conditions are simply his opinion. It is like assuming Lutherans hate Jews just because Luther did. While the conditions of tolerance definitly varied; from quite decent under the Ummayads to down-right crappy under the Almohavids, it was on the whole better than Europe for a long time.

You can of course talk about pogroms in Europe, but anti-christian and anti-jewish etc pogroms existed in muslim world as well, and I can provide you with a list of some of the most spectacular, if you like
I'm not denying there were Pogroms in the Muslim world. But Poland had their fair share of pogroms and Russia had the Pale settlements.
Fatimids were indeed tolerant, in general, but their reign witnessed not only the rule of Al-Hakim (destruction of every church in the state, including the ones in Jerusalem etc),
And if I remember correctly, Al-Hakim was insane and he was quickly deposed.

Umayyads? It is also Umar II, who raised taxation with exact intent of converting non-muslims (he was an exception, but in fact he is the only Umayyad caliph who is considered venerable out of the all list, and also for his anti-christian stance), was allegedly the first one to introduce special garments for non-muslims and to try to fire non-muslim officials.
Any source on the special garments and on firing the non-muslisms?
IIRC in Medieval France and Spain the Jews had to pay a special tax to the king and at times the kings disliked the Inquisitions as it was depriving them of personal revenue.

I agree that the tolerance ranged from decent to crappy. But to assert Islam is inherently intolerant and 'kill the infidel' is a misrepresentation of the situation.
 
Muslim tolerance was not anything as great or as unique as some think. Firstly, it was forced by circumstances. If they actually conquered a city by force, they were free to take religious buildings for their own cult, and do with the population as they pleased. If a city capitulated, it was mostly under conditions of religious tolerance. Muslim glory is that they often acted according to the deals they agreed to.
Is that in any way a uniquely Muslim habit? Roman Christians many pagan temples into Churches, many other holy sites had churches constructed upon them, and medieval Christians were just as willing to convert mosques into Churches as vice versa. To be quite honest, this seems like a comment on the greater military success of Islamic rulers, rather than any peculiar trait of Islam.
 
Recklessly skipping over 5+ pages of discussion, the answer is:

Mu.

The true question is:

What's the problem with the Muslim world?

The two are separate. The religion is fine. The region is not.
 
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