What's the problem with Islam, anyway?

[Ayn Rand]

@ Taillesskangaroo and Spryllino - I've received multiple responses so rather than a quote marathon I'll try and deal with the salient points as one.


I'll make a historical analogy that best describes this situation. When we went to war with Germany, Japan and Italy in WW2, we were at war with a group of ideologies.

Firstly, not every German who fought us supported the Nazi ideology. They didn't have to, because an ideology can take over a State and make people fight for it or obey it even if they don't support it. Therefore, whether the majority of people support an ideology or not is irrelevant because, through the mechanism of the State, they will end up supporting it and obeying it anyway.

Secondly, once we defeated the ideologies motivating those countries, they became our allies and stopped causing us a problem. They were the same people - it was the ideology that caused them to fight us.

Therefore, your assertions concerning the individual good character of muslims are largely irrelevant. You have failed completely to understand how an ideology motivates, orders and controls people. You have failed to distinguish the fact that people can be hostile to one another based on their ideology, and that their personal feelings are irrelevant.


Islam is an ideology. I shouldn't need to tell you that criticising this man-made ideology is necessary and healthy. It does have many flaws, it does motivate and control people, and it does lead to multiple acts of oppression and violence.
All your arguments, each and every single one of them so far, have amounted to is little more than evasion through various means and devices. You are intellectually incapable of bringing yourselves to dissect and analyse this ideology for what it is, and choose instead to talk about irrelevant non-ideological factors that have nothing to do with how religions, States and ideologies take over people and countries and cause them to act in the real World.

 

[StittsvilleJame]

Wasn't Hitler a Christian?

 

[spryllino]

We were not at war with Nazism, or Imperialism, or Fascism. We were as imperialist as the Japanese anyway. We were at war with them because of their actions. We attacked Germany because they attacked Poland and Czechoslovakia, not because they had a Nazi state. If they'd still had a democratic government, we would have declared war all the same. Ideology was irrelevant.

Your assertions about the bad character of individual Muslims are irrelevant. I have not praised a single Muslim, and I do not remotely see why you think I did. You are the one attacking individual Muslims and pretending that that justifies your assertions that the whole faith it evil.

Now. I am insulted that that is the second time you have called me intellectually incapable. You are the intellectually incapable one here, resorting to the most disgraceful racism, strawmen and ad hominems. You are the one faling to prove anything whatsoever, and insulting people will get you precisely nowhere.

Shut up or justify yourself properly.

 

[Squonk]

Wasn't Hitler a Christian?

Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939 a conversation in which Hitler had "expressed his revulsion against Christianity. He wished that the time were ripe for him to be able to openly express that. Christianity had corrupted and infected the entire world of antiquity."[23] Albert Speer reports in his memoirs of a similar statement made by Hitler: "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views#cite_note-23

Albert Speer. 1971. Inside the Third Reich Translated by Richard Winston, Clara Winston, Eugene Davidson. New York: Macmillan. p 143; Reprinted in 1997. Inside the Third Reich: Memoirs. New York: Simon and Schuster. p. 96. ISBN 0-684-82949-5.


On another occasions he claimed to be christian / catholic, though. It seems as if he considered himself catholic / christian, although he didn't find this the best religion. That it wasn't his choice of conscience, but sort of something he inherited.

 

[Tee Kay]

Islam is an ideology. I shouldn't need to tell you that criticising this man-made ideology is necessary and healthy. It does have many flaws, it does motivate and control people, and it does lead to multiple acts of oppression and violence.

I have no problems with you or anyone criticizing ideologies. What I object to is you misrepresenting said ideology.

I'll say it once more; Islam is a group of related but nevertheless different ideologies. Acts of oppression and violence are the work of people who follow a particular interpretation of the ideologies. Your portrayal of Islam, as a whole, is errornous, inaccurate, and unfair.

All your arguments, each and every single one of them so far, insists upon treating Islam as a monolithic ideology, and fails to recognize the differences within Islam, within and between Islamic societies and countries, and failing to recognize that non-ideological factors do influence people and events and what ideologies mean to people. It doesn't work.

 

[Luckymoose]

My problem with Islam is that anyone would follow the teachings of an epileptic child molester.

 

[Squonk]

And we British could never bury a Muslim woman in the ground and take a photo? That's absurd. You are giving uncontextualised sources and useless assertions and completely failing to prove anything.

uh, you are aware this burying in the ground is for her to remain a steady target while people are stoning her?

 

[spryllino]

No, which is precisely why Ayn Rand should have contextualised his source. The point still stands; a group of British people could stone someone as well.

 

[StittsvilleJame]

uh, you are aware this burying in the ground is for her to remain a steady target while people are stoning her?

They really should have claimed she was a witch, and then burned her alive. Christianity has been much more civilized in the past....

 

[Tee Kay]

On another occasions he claimed to be christian / catholic, though. It seems as if he considered himself catholic / christian, although he didn't find this the best religion. That it wasn't his choice of conscience, but sort of something he inherited.

Christianity is nevertheless something Hitler invokes in his propaganda to justify Nazi ideology and actions. Whether he's a believer is another matter of course.

 

[Ayn Rand]

We were not at war with Nazism, or Imperialism, or Fascism. We were as imperialist as the Japanese anyway. We were at war with them because of their actions.

Their actions were directly motivated by their ideologies. That's not in dispute.

We attacked Germany because they attacked Poland and Czechoslovakia, not because they had a Nazi state. If they'd still had a democratic government, we would have declared war all the same. Ideology was irrelevant.

It's worth pointing out that they attacked Poland as a consequence of the ideological takeover of their State by Nazism/fascism etc. Ideology shapes the State, which then takes ideologically-motivated actions and oders/forces millions of people to support it.

Your assertions about the bad character of individual Muslims are irrelevant. I have not praised a single Muslim, and I do not remotely see why you think I did. You are the one attacking individual Muslims and pretending that that justifies your assertions that the whole faith it evil.

I did point out that I was addressing more than just you in my post to make the discussion more manageable.

Now. I am insulted that that is the second time you have called me intellectually incapable. You are the intellectually incapable one here, resorting to the most disgraceful racism, strawmen and ad hominems. You are the one faling to prove anything whatsoever, and insulting people will get you precisely nowhere.

I'm criticising a religion and you are calling me racist. That's pretty lame.

Please tell me, which race am I discriminating against?

Shut up or justify yourself properly.

I am justifying myself properly.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I don't like them because they wear funny hats and their music has quarter tones that make my musicians' mind wince.

 

[Masada]

So, I decided to check this Islam is the common denominator claim

I was somewhat taken aback that Indonesia even figured on that table. A quick check through the list vindicated earlier feelings I've had about the competency of Amnesty International as a group. One of the metrics used to computate the tables was 'abuses by armed opposition groups' and somewhat embarrassingly I couldn't think of a single instance where that was relevant to Indonesia's case. Either I was wrong or Amnesty was wrong. I preferred the latter. Unfortunately, we were both right. The list is from 1999. That explains away the inclusion of Yugoslavia, Pakistan, Indonesia and Rwanda at a conservative guess.

 

[Ayn Rand]

I have no problems with you or anyone criticizing ideologies. What I object to is you misrepresenting said ideology.

Fair enough - but I don't think I'm misrepresenting the ideology. There are serious problems with many parts of Islam. You keep responding that some parts of Islam don't have problems. So what does that have to do with my point?

I'll say it once more; Islam is a group of related but nevertheless different ideologies. Acts of oppression and violence are the work of people who follow a particular interpretation of the ideologies. Your portrayal of Islam, as a whole, is errornous, inaccurate, and unfair.

Acts of oppression and violence are not just the work of people, but of the ideas, States and religions that shape the minds and Nations of those people.

It's not possible to ignore the role of ideology - ie of Islam - in constructing essentially evil and reactionary States and cultures, and of the actions those States then carry out.

May I ask you what your characterisation of Islam is? Do you think it is wholly innocent and harmless as an ideology? I'd like clarity on this, because if Islam is truly as varied as you say it is, then you must surely admit that it is at least partially evil.

A

ll your arguments, each and every single one of them so far, insists upon treating Islam as a monolithic ideology, and fails to recognize the differences within Islam, within and between Islamic societies and countries, and failing to recognize that non-ideological factors do influence people and events and what ideologies mean to people. It doesn't work.

I am dealing with the oppressive parts of Islam - ie this is a discussion on the problems that Islam has.

You keep essentially repeating "it's not fair to look at the problems in Islam because there are some parts somewhere else that don't have problems". We can't just look at the problem-free areas, we are specifically looking at the problem areas here.

It's not discrimination or a false/unfair portrayal to zero in on Islam's problems. Choosing to look at the problems instead of the good parts is the whole point of criticism. Your constantly pointing out the good parts just looks like a smokescreen to me. It just makes Islam look even more dangerous when it seems to repel and avoid criticism.

 

[Truronian]

Unsettling truth: There are a number of nations out there that are pretty backward because of exploitation (both in the past and now) by the West, particularly Europe.

Much more palatable un-truth: There are a number of of nations out there that are pretty backward because of Islam.

 

[Squonk]

No, which is precisely why Ayn Rand should have contextualised his source. The point still stands; a group of British people could stone someone as well.

They could, but stoning unfaithful women is a custom spread in muslim world, sanctioned by muslim tradition, while it was clearly forbidden by Jesus, hence it is not something known in the christian world, although I can't speak for newly christianised african states.
I can well imagine islamic world without stoning, it is not anything essential for islam, there are many muslim countries where is custom is dead, but indeed islam has a problem with this.

They really should have claimed she was a witch, and then burned her alive. Christianity has been much more civilized in the past....

You defend current "mistakes" of a certain culture by that another culture made another mistakes 400-500 years earlier?

Christianity is nevertheless something Hitler invokes in his propaganda to justify Nazi ideology and actions. Whether he's a believer is another matter of course.

It is sad, but one must remember as well that Catholic church opposed Hitler, and so did some protestant ministers. Saddam Hussein (although much a lesser evil than Hitler) used islamic rhetoric at some points as well, and I do not believe his faults taint islam.

 

[spryllino]

Their actions were directly motivated by their ideologies. That's not in dispute.

Yes it is. They invaded Poland because Hitler wanted to and because he was evil, not because he was a Nazi. That is a connection purely by association.

It's worth pointing out that they attacked Poland as a consequence of the ideological takeover of their State by Nazism/fascism etc. Ideology shapes the State, which then takes ideologically-motivated actions and oders/forces millions of people to support it.

No, it was because Hitler was in charge.

I did point out that I was addressing more than just you in my post to make the discussion more manageable.

The point still stands that you are criticising Muslims as a group in an utterly unjustified manner on account of the actions of its adherents.

I'm criticising a religion and you are calling me racist. That's pretty lame.

Please tell me, which race am I discriminating against?

I am calling you racist because that is a word that is quite frequently used to indicate unjustified bias on the grounds of religion as well as race. Etymologically inaccurate, perhaps, but a common and perfectly acceptable use of the word.

I am justifying myself properly.

No you're not. Justifying yourself involves a clear proof with logical arguments, sources, and clear explanations, rather than unfounded assertions. You are just doing unfounded assertions.

Prove how being Muslim causes one to be evil.

 

[Masada]

Fair enough - but I don't think I'm misrepresenting the ideology. There are serious problems with many parts of Islam. You keep responding that some parts of Islam don't have problems. So what does that have to do with my point?

Please tell me what ideology Christianity has. It should be miles easier than defining the ideology of Islam. You even come from a state which has enshrined one version of it, Anglicanism, as the state religion. I figure a hundred words or less should be enough to encapsulate the broad thrust of the matter, no? If you want I'll even accept a short missive on Islam's ideology if you feel up to it.

 

[Squonk]

Unsettling truth: There are a number of nations out there that are pretty backward because of exploitation (both in the past and now) by the West, particularly Europe.

if not for the west, the oil wouldn't be exploited. My, how prosperous Middle Eastern states would have been then.

western rule over Middle East and northern Africa was relatively short and mostly not direct. Also, if they were conquered by Europe, it's mostly because these countries were much weaker than them already.

 

[El_Machinae]

Whew, this thread is a bit of a mess.

I think that the danger is to conflate: "Islam with Muslims" and to conflate "being from an oppressed nation with being from a Muslim nation".

The specific problem with Islam is that it claims that the Qur'an is literally holy and encourages Muslim to act like it does. This results in people believing false things (like Noah's or Moses's existence), wicked things (like we should stone certain groups of people), anti-intellectual things (like that Muslims should not befriend non-Muslims or that apostates deserve death), and dangerous things (like that that Ummah is a tribe worth defending as the Ummah).

Muslims, otoh, are as varied as any culture. The problem with Muslims is that people seem to think that there's a 'generic Muslim' that either needs to be emulated or despised.

It's only historical accident that the oppressed people in the Muslim world tend to be muslim. You'll find that LOTS of places in the world were serially mistreated, and then the abusive governments tended to contain the culture of the region