What's wrong with Islam?

G-Man

A One Man's War
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First of all, I wanna make sure you all understand this thread isn't against Islam as a religion or against people who believe in Islam - some of my best friends are muslims.

However what I do wanna talk about in this thread is the connection between Islamic countries, tyranny and terrorism.
There are over 40 countries in the world with an Islamic majority, but the only Islamic country I can think about that has something close to democracy is Turkey, although they are totaly dependent on their army for stability. Also, almost all terrorism in the world is Islamic. I can name you right now 5 different Islamic terror orgenizations fighting Israel that can make the IRA look like a joke. How come in Islamic countries there are millions that support terrorism while in the rest of the world it's a small minority?
I've heard some people here talk about the Islamic countries being desressed by the west. I don't think it's true, but even if it is there are many other countries hurt by another group but they don't kill thousands. India and Pakistan come from very similar backgrounds but today India is a democracy while Pakistan is ruled by a dictator. I can't think of a single time muslim countries had the chance to hurt Israel and they didn't do it, but you don't see Israelis crashing planes into muslim cities.
I'm just tired of all these presidents and PMs saying that Islam is infact a religion of peace. Say what you say, but let's see you giving me the name of a muslim country that is currently not at war with any terrorists from within.
And I;m also tired of them always trying to show it's not a war against Islam. If a jew would've done such a thing Israel wouldn't suddenly get US support, so why does Islamic countries get such help?
 
I'd like any muslims on the forum to look at (Q. 9:5), and tell me what it says. I heard it says:

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them." :eek:

Of course, if its not true, then I humbly apoligize.

If it is, I can add it to my list of 'Intolerant Religions.'


BTW, I'm not anti-muslim, or anything like that, I'm anti-organised religion, as while I'm an atheist I have no problem with religion as long as wars don't happen because of it.
 
Nothing particular "wrong" with Islam. It, like any religion or faith institution, can be misued by power seekers to recruit and control followers and populations, particularly when mixed with poverty and "victiminzation" demogogary & attitude. The apparently higher rates of terrorism among Moslems has much more to with povery and vitimization than with Islam, as well most Moslem nations and powers being incapable of winning conventional or other lawfaul warfare against either Israel or western rivals.

More tyranny likewise has little to do with islam, and a lot to do with poverty and vitimization, as well as the relatively recent independence of Moslem nations from the Ottoman Empire, other archaic monarchies, and colonialism. They have realtively less politica experience and tradition than most nations with democratic process, and governments that are supposed to serve the people.
 
Nothing particular "wrong" with Islam. It, like any religion or faith institution, can be misued by power seekers to recruit and control followers and populations, particularly when mixed with poverty and "victiminzation" demogogary & attitude.

In my experience, the issue is not Islam (as others have posted). There is a *large* amount of pre-Islamic cultural "baggage" that has been mixed up with Islam in many countries (female genital mutilation is a good case in point - *nothing* about that in the Quran).

It seems that seperating church and state faces even larger barriers in many Islamic countries than it does in other countries. As other posters have noted, this results in national policy (often a government blaming other governments for a nation's problems) is cast in a religious light, which causes the dangers we are all dealing with right now.

But if there is a problem, it is that the Islamic states have no balls when it comes to dealing with their own internal problems. As one of my Malaysian freinds said, his governemnt is just too afraid to deal with Islamic radicals in their own country.

I guess the US has the same trouble with right- wing nuts, except ours don't attack other countries.

If all Islamic nations dealt with radical fundementalists the same way Grermany deals w/ neo-Nazis, we would probably be better off.

Peace -

Ashoka
 
Originally posted by G-Man
There are over 40 countries in the world with an Islamic majority, but the only Islamic country I can think about that has something close to democracy is Turkey, although they are totaly dependent on their army for stability. Also, almost all terrorism in the world is Islamic. I can name you right now 5 different Islamic terror orgenizations fighting Israel that can make the IRA look like a joke. How come in Islamic countries there are millions that support terrorism while in the rest of the world it's a small minority?
I'm just tired of all these presidents and PMs saying that Islam is infact a religion of peace. Say what you say, but let's see you giving me the name of a muslim country that is currently not at war with any terrorists from within.
You have forgotten Malaysia which is Muslim, which is democratic, which has no local terrorists to speak of. And I definitely know my home country better than you do.
Also not all terrorist orgs in the world are Islamic. The Basque separatist org operating in Spain is, well, Basque. The Shining Path in Peru is, well, Indian. These orgs employed terrorist tactics to achieve their stated objectives.
 
We made you a nation of moderation and justice
-Quran 2:143

There is something very fundamentally wrong with Islam.

Not because 19 Moslems slammed a plane into the World Trade Center killing 5000 people; these were a tiny minority of a whole. Also, while the Quran has its violent moments - famously dividing the world into the Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-Harb - most religions have a nasty side. Christians and Jews should take some time and read what lovely things the Book of Leviticus in the Old Testament/Torah says we should do.

:jesus:

Islam is in trouble because its inner culture is collapsing. And if you haven't figured it out yet, the whole world is going to pay the price. A religion is a whole collection of things put together under a single label: theology, philosophy, language, physical culture, hierarchy, history, clergy, contradiction, faith, tradition... It's this and more. As Christianity is tied inextricably to the West, Islam is tied to classical Arab history. By now both religions are far more widespread than their original areas, but their core culture shines through wherever they are practiced.

Moslems have been brought up to believe that the world will be theirs, that even though there will probably always be people who cling to inferior religions, they will eventually be ruled by Moslems. The Quran has specific laws for how non-Moslems should be treated in Islamic lands. It only has a few laws on how Moslems living in non-Moslem lands should live, because that situation won't happen often (in their view). After the powerful military and scientific successes of the early Arab-Moslem and the Ottoman empires, it was a severe shock to Moslems to discover that barbaric Europe had surpassed them technologically. This has created tensions ever since in Islam, because the law says this shouldn't be so. Modern Moslems blame all of their ills on the West and its imperial past, despite the fact that other parts of the world who were also ruled by the Western colonial powers have since gone on to great prosperity and can compete with the modern West - Japan, China, India, Israel, South Korea, Malaysia, Thailand, Brazil, South Africa, etc. It clearly can be done. At the end of a decade when world-wide economic growth rates have brought development to every major world civilization, the Islamic world has seen its living standards collapse and its fabled oil wealth dry up. Modern Moslems are ruled either by feudal monarchies or harsh dictatorships, both of which have little regard for human life. It is a sad irony observed by some Palestinian intellectuals that for as bad as Israel treats its Arabs, that treatment is still far better than that which is given by almost all of the Islamic governments to their own citizens. Add to this the widespread corruption of these regimes, and it's no wonder so many Islamic youth are reaching for some magic bullet to solve their problems. Their ideas sound crazy when shown the light of day, but they are very desperate. Their religion tells them they are the pinnacle of human achievement in God's world; but they live like the dogs of the world.

Some quotes:

From Amir Taheri, an Iranian journalist in Paris, in his article "Islam Can't Escape Blame for September 11th": There is more. All but one of the world's remaining military regimes are in Muslim countries. With the exception of Turkey and Bangladesh, there are no real elections in any Muslim country. Of the current 30 active military conflicts in the world no fewer than 28 concern Muslim governments and/or communities. Two-thirds of the world's political prisoners are held in Muslim countries, which also carry out 80% of all executions each year.

Anyone familiar with textbooks in most Muslim countries would know the twisted view of the world they propagate and the hatred they promote. Anyone who follows the media in the Muslim world would know that the verbal version of the September 11 attacks is an almost daily fare. Go to the internet and check the editorials of virtually any Muslim paper on September 10 and see what they were saying about the West in general and the U.S. in particular. Anyone listening to a sermon in virtually any Mosque, including many in the West, woulde be shocked by the vehemence of the anti-Western, especially anti-American, sentiments expressed.

It is both dishonest and dangerous for Muslims to remain in a state of denial. And yet a state of denial is what we have. When Iran's Khomeinists burned 600 people alive in a cinema, the whitewashers said it had nothing to do with Islam. When the same gang took the American diplomats hostage in Tehran, again the whitewash party insisted that had nothing to do with Islam. And when the suicide bombings bloodied Beirut we were told that Islam had nothing to do with them.

The Muslim world today is full of bigotry, fanaticism, hypocracy and plain ignorance - all of which create a breeding ground for criminals like bin Laden. The principal victims of these criminals are Muslims, who are prevented from developing a modern political culture without which they cannot reform their societies and rebuild their economies.

From Muqtedar Khan in his article "Some Muslims Give Islam a Bad Name":
Another imam, Fawaz Damra of the Cleveland Islamic Center, was videotaped speaking in 1991 to an Islamic jihad fundraiser in Chicago. He urged the audience to direct "a rifle at the first and last enemy of the Islamic nation, and that is the sons of monkeys and pigs, the Jews." After a local TV station recently aired this videotape, he apologized for making "deplorable" statements in the past.

Such statements are more than "deplorable". They make Muslims look irrational, hateful and kooky. When such statements are made by Islamic scholars, who hold or have held important religious positions, it only gives Islam a bad name but also raises the question, what have these scholars been teaching their congregations?

From Khaled Abou el Fadl, in his article "What Islam teaches about tolerance":
In Islamic law, terrorism (hirabah) is considered cowardly, predatory and a grand sin punishable by death. Classical Islamic law explicitly prohibits the taking or slaying of hostages or diplomats even in retaliation against unlawful acts by the enemy. Furthermore, it prohibits stealth or indiscriminate attacks against enemies, Muslim or non-Muslim. One can even say that Classical jurists considered such acts to be contrary to the ethics of Arab chivalry and therefore fundamentally cowardly.

It would be disingenious, however, to propose that this Classical attitude is predominant or even that familiar in modern Arab-Muslim culture.

[...]

It is disheartening to hear contemporary Arab news agencies, for example, refer to acts of terrorism in neutral terms such as guerilla attacks (amal fida'i) and to suicide bombers as martyrs (shuhuda).

[...]

Most important, a dogmatic, puritanical and ethically oblivious form of Islam has predominated since the 1970s. This brand of Islamic theology is largely dismissive of the classical juristic tradition and of any notion of universal and innate moral values.

[...]

This contemporary orientation is anchored in profound feelings of defeatism, alienation, frustration and arrogance. It is a theology that is alienated not only from the institutions of power in the modern world but also from its own heritage and tradition...

This is what the modern world is up against.
 
What has been said here really takes away all my thunder, and I agree with it most muchly. One thing that peeves me off is the fallacy spread for some reason by the politically correct press that Christianity was the first to attack Islam, in the Crusades. This fails to acknowledge the objective truth of the initial invasions and conquests by the Muslims after 632 AD. The Battle of Tours and Charles Martel ring a bell to anyone? This does not mean that all Muslims are automatically dedicated to invading the south of France, but as it was said above, they believe it is their destiny to rule the world.
Hell, so does everyone worth their salt. So why put on such a subterfuge and deny it.
My hypothesis is the recent rash of pro-Islam is to firm the beloved "Coalition". It is necessary, unfortunately, to pander to the sensibilities of some in order to take out the Benji El-Khalb.
 
When we look at history, the christian religion has also been quite fanatical, and have prosecuted "disbelievers"...

Take the crusades, as mentioned.. And also wich-burning for example... Executions in the name of God.. And forced christening of countries (e.g. norway)..

Even women werent allowed to show much of their body in christian societies, much less did they have any social rights...

But christianity developed from these things, and became a quite tolerant religion with very few fanatics..

Maybe Islam will develop in the same manner? It is a 700 year younger religion... Where were christianity 700 years ago?
 
ENEMY ACE is a foe to all religions or groups who take away
personal freedom from humans.

NO-ONE has the right to dictate to others based on his/her views.

The acts of violence and ignorance carried out by all
zealots worldwide make me sick.

Humankind should dump this metaphysical garbage
the same way we abandoned the club and cave-dwelling.;)
 
Simon Darkshade wrote: One thing that peeves me off is the fallacy spread for some reason by the politically correct press that Christianity was the first to attack Islam, in the Crusades.

Absolutely, Simon. This is another example of the distortion of history that goes on in Islamic societies today. The very creation of Europe, the attempt to create a Christian state, came about as an attempt to counter the Islamic onslaught. Byzantium and Khazaria in the East both held back the Islamic invasion for centuries, allowing the Frankish and Ottonian-"Holy Roman" empires to develop.

As well, my ancestors in Central Europe spent centuries fighting against the Ottoman Islamic invasion. We were lucky, but the Christian peoples of the Balkans spent half a millennium under Islamic rule. The Moslem Turks twice attempted to take Vienna (1529, 1683), and had landed in Italy itself at one point, threatening Rome. Sicily spent some time under Arab rule. The reality is that the Moslems are not innocent of aggression themselves. The reality is we (the West and the Islamic world) have a long history together filled with mutual acrimony. Neither side is completely to blame for our past misdeeds. The Crusades were kicked off initially when the Moslem ruler of Jerusalem destroyed the Holy Church of the Sepulchre, the holiest church for Christians (that supposedly has Christ's grave).

If we both were objective about our history, we'd see that for all the battles we've fought, we've also gained and learned much from each other. The old Islamic academic centers in Baghdad preserved the Classical Greek and Roman writings on science, math, philosophy, engineering, architecture, etc. that the Christians of Rome had attempted to eradicate and destroy as "pagan texts" in the 5th and 6th centuries. One example is how the West regained access to the Arab translations of these texts through Sephardic Jews who translated the texts captured in the Spanish Reconquista back to Latin and from Venetian traders in Constantinople. These re-discovered texts helped kick of the European Renaissance. We've learned very much from each other indeed.

We also have some common crimes together; When the Portuguese sailed around Africa for the first time they discovered a very organized system of slave trade operated by the Moslems going on, so they merely started picking off the Moslem forts and taking over the "business".

I am a great admirer of Islamic civilization, and I've spent much time reading about its accomplishments and contributions to the world. However, it was after all a human civilization, and human civilizations all succumb to common evils; conquest, intolerance, bigotry, ignorance - all human qualities that all civilization bear to some extent. Islam has made major contributions to the world, but it has also committed grievous crimes. My hope is that some level-headec Moslems will be able to step above the self-serving propaganda that is pouring out of Islamic news agencies and schools and realize that Islam is just another civilization in the world and they should work towards making this a better place to live - for everyone.
 
ENEMY ACE is a foe to all religions or groups who take away
personal freedom from humans.

NO-ONE has the right to dictate to others based on his/her views.

The acts of violence and ignorance carried out by all
zealots worldwide make me sick.

Humankind should dump this metaphysical garbage
the same way we abandoned the club and cave-dwelling.

Man, you are so right!:goodjob:
 
Islam is cool, its the radical forms of Islam that ****s everything up. Like the hmmm Nation of Islam i believe, in america. They're a pretty radical form of Islam.
Then there's Osama Bin Ladin's interpretation. Everything gets screwed up when people who think they're prophets interpret the Quaran or the Bible or whatever Godly writtings into their own versions. Saying things that the WEST is bad and we must die in suicide attacks to rid of the WEST. I don't think the WEST was around back in the time of Muhammed?
Just wondering :rolleyes:
 
There wasn't a western world in 500AD but there were people who didn't believe in Islam. Today the Islam is moraly in the middle ages. The problem is that technology is in the the year 2001 not 1401. Imagine what would happen if the crusaders had nuclear weapons and machine guns. There weren't any more non christians in the world that's for sure...
Cilpot - Islam DOES discriminates women. If you'll look in the quran you'll see that an Islamic man will go to heaven and have 73 virgions there, but an Islamic woman doesn't get anything in the end. Unbelievers of both sexes are, ofcource, going to hell. Also Islam allows racism between believers and non-believers (Jewdism and Christianity have rules against descriminating non believers). That's a very "peaceful" religion as Bush and Blair like to call it.

More tyranny likewise has little to do with islam, and a lot to do with poverty and vitimization, as well as the relatively recent independence of Moslem nations from the Ottoman Empire, other archaic monarchies, and colonialism. They have realtively less politica experience and tradition than most nations with democratic process, and governments that are supposed to serve the people.

Israel was a part of the Ottoman empire. Israel was a British colony. We were poorer then the Muslem and were still able to bring millions of people with no money or property. We are in war with someone for over 50 years - I can't think of a year in which no military action was taken against Israel. But we're a democratic country. Explain that.
 
Religion is regional and why...because it relies on indoctrination of the next generation, there is no great enlightenment just people being brought up a certain way.

I am a "hope there is a god" person because the alternative is pretty bleak :(

Organised religion just like the boy scouts can take a flying leap off a cliff.
 
G-Man wrote: Cilpot - Islam DOES discriminates women. If you'll look in the quran you'll see that an Islamic man will go to heaven and have 73 virgions there, but an Islamic woman doesn't get anything in the end.

Like all religions, official Islam is ambiguous about women. The Quran does grant them specific rights. And like early Christianity, early Islam treated women as virtual equals. (In early Christianity, when Jesus holds The Last Supper with the two Marys and Martha - women and men dining together - that was extremely radical. In Islam, the Prophet Muhammed married a widow (Khadija) who had not only inherited her husband's wealth alone but was successfully running his business as a merchant. That was also almost unheard of.)

However, the current strain of Islam that we're really debating has a very medieval approach to women. Several authors have noted that the primary shock for Islamic men when they travel to the West is seeing how free and unfettered women are here. This has become a symbol for radical Islamicists of all that is evil and immoral about the West. Because of this, modern Islamic women are being forced to forego all the gains they've had over the past several decades. In 1985, if you would have walked around Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine, Egypt, the Gulf Kingdoms, etc., you would have seen that the majority of Islamic women were wearing jeans, make-up, etc. Over the past 15 years Moslem radicals have slowly forced most Moslem women back into the veils, and forced many to forego education and jobs - though many are stubbornly holding on to that. Even many Moslem women in the West are either being intimidated into wearing the veils or being taught that "good Moslem women wear veils".

In this way women must pay the price for Islam's crumbling identity, because they are the most visible.
 
This is a very intelligent and well thought out thread.

So I guess I have nothing to add.:D :lol:

I will say that I agree with almost everything I've read here. Especialy Lefty. I see people like Bin-Laden and immeadiately think of Hitler, and how he hood-winked 80 million people. We can all be fooled, given the right circumstances.

I know very little about Islam, but I know alot about terrorists. I never really connected the two, Religion-Terror. Its a seperate issue. Terror is crude, but it is the only way they can hit us where it hurts. They have no other means.

Why do they do it? Think of all these posters that criticize the US here at the CFC, and all the misconceptions about America they display. Then magnify it by 10 times, and add some life experience fighting Russian invaders and brutal rebel forces. Or hundreds of years of primitive clan warfare. Theres your terrorist mindset. Hate. Anger. Prejudice. Greed.

That has nothing to do with religion. Religion is another red herring when you talk about these animals. It is a vile distortion, an abomination, to religious people.

There are sick people with sick minds everywhere in this world, and they can infect others with their sick ideas.

You dont treat a rabid dog with kindness and understanding. You tie it to a tree and put it out of its (and your) misery. Not with malice, but with the conviction that it is the necessary thing to do.

Everyone be safe out there.
~George:smoke:
 
Like all religions, official Islam is ambiguous about women.

Yes, but still...

Chapter4, Verse 34.

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has
made some of them to excel others and because they spend out
of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

That's a pretty definite view.
 
Originally posted by Sixchan

That's a pretty definite view.

Hmmm...

It's a pretty medieval view!

Women are equal to men,
that's the bottom line.

I hope one day the women oppressed by the stale
interpretaions of islam rise up and give chauvinistic
asswipes like OBL a kicking!!!

The mistreatment of women
gets ENEMY ACE angry very fast!!! :mad:
 
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